Author |
Message |
whomper
Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Posts: 201 Location: Israel
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject:
VC-ADSR build issue |
|
|
Hi,
I have just completed building a VC-ADSR and can not operationalize the module.
I am getting a constant 14V at the output no matter if there in an input gate signal or not. Verified component values and all seems kosher.
Note that I am using a TL074 and a HEF4069UB which might be a small deviation from spec. Not sure if they can cause this behavior.
Hints and tips to debug would be greatly appreciated! _________________ Erez Yaary
Home Page: http://www.yaary.com
Buy my CDs at http://www.mellowjet.de |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Mongo1
Joined: Aug 11, 2011 Posts: 411 Location: Raleigh NC
|
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject:
I need some more info.... |
|
|
Hi,
Whenever you have a non-working board like this, the key thing is to break the problem into manageable chunks. If you do some basic tests, it will help you isolate where the problem is.
1) Verify that all the ICs are receiving proper power and ground. Are any of the chips feeling too hot etc?
2) Verify that all of the external connections (like control voltages and triggers) are actually reaching their destinations properly. For instance, when you turn the knobs for the VC controls, can you see the voltages changing properly on the board?
3) If all of that is correct, then you have to start debugging it step by step. When you inject a trigger pulse to the input of the card, can you follow that signal along through the various components like the NOR gate and so on?
It's really important to gather as much data as you can before you ask for help. Quite often just going through that process can help you find the problem. If not, then it gives us enough information to be able to help you more effectively...
Good luck
Gary |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
whomper
Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Posts: 201 Location: Israel
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Gary,
Thanks for the quick tips.
1. All pots are between 0v-15v.
2. Power rail has 6.2V, probably due to working with +-15V.
3. Traced trigger signal all the way to 4016. PINs 9&3 are static at 2.1V.
4. PINs 2&10 show trigger signal and amplitude is impacted by the sustain pot.
Saw that U1 Pin 1 shows 15V, so I removed the TL074 and the module started to behave better. Attack, Sustain, Delay and Release pots worked, while Decay did not.
As TL074 is also in charge of the 5V rail, its removal also reduced that rail to 3.2V, but the module did work as mentioned above. _________________ Erez Yaary
Home Page: http://www.yaary.com
Buy my CDs at http://www.mellowjet.de |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Mongo1
Joined: Aug 11, 2011 Posts: 411 Location: Raleigh NC
|
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Power rail has 6.2V, probably due to working with +-15V.
Ok - lets fix that first -
According to my calculations, if you change R20 to 68k, that should put you right at 5V. That's probably not a big deal, but it definitely affects a lot of different things on the card.
The 15V on pin 1 of U1 does seem strange - I don't have one of these modules so I can't tell what to expect there. Perhaps someone else here can jump in and give us some data...
Gary |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
DGTom
Joined: Dec 08, 2008 Posts: 211 Location: Adelaide
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 1
|
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
sounds like the 074 is the problem
as its being powered by +15V & ground, I'd stick with the 324. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Mongo1
Joined: Aug 11, 2011 Posts: 411 Location: Raleigh NC
|
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:15 am Post subject:
|
|
|
sounds like the 074 is the problem
as its being powered by +15V & ground, I'd stick with the 324.
Wow - I totally missed that - That's what comes from working all day and synthing at night I guess.
Anyway, I agree 100% with that. The 324 was designed specifically for single supply operation - A 074 won't work in that spot.
Gary |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
whomper
Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Posts: 201 Location: Israel
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:05 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Switched the 074 with a 324 that I just bought today, and it works! The ADSR works as planned (just need to reverse some Pot wiring as they are reversed.
Thanks guys for your help! _________________ Erez Yaary
Home Page: http://www.yaary.com
Buy my CDs at http://www.mellowjet.de |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
msprigings
Joined: Jan 16, 2012 Posts: 7 Location: Virginia
|
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Gonna try this one next but with 12v power. Glad to know it worked out. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Argitoth
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 6
|
Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Which transistors need to be matched? I don't know how to read a schematic so I can't tell what part T1 T2 T3 and T4 refer to. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: australia
Audio files: 4
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Argitoth
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 6
|
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
There's very few VC-ADSRs solutions for someone on a budget... I do stick to projects with parts kits and where I don't have to look at the schematic whenever possible.
All I really need is a few questions answered here or there, so thanks for answering my question. I am looking at the schematic and now I see T1 T2 T3 T4. I see it's next to U3. Now, how do I know that U3 is LM324? |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: australia
Audio files: 4
|
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
U3 is a 4558
U4 is a LM324 |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Argitoth
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 6
|
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
oh... guess I am clueless... WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
prgdeltablues
Joined: Sep 25, 2006 Posts: 222 Location: UK
Audio files: 12
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:21 am Post subject:
|
|
|
On the schematic. The details for U3 are just to the left of the first part of that opamp (below where it says 'Sus/pot'), and for U4 below parts 3 and 4, beside the word 'Serge'
Peter |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Argitoth
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 6
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:33 am Post subject:
|
|
|
omg!!!! OMG!!! I CAN SEE IT! I see every part now! U1 U2 U3 U4 U5, etc., I know what each one is! I couldn't frikkin see it before!
Ok, ok... I'm getting this... I'm almost there... now how does the schematic tell you what T1 through T4 is? I found T6 and T7 and I know the LED is connected to 2N3565... |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
prgdeltablues
Joined: Sep 25, 2006 Posts: 222 Location: UK
Audio files: 12
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:53 am Post subject:
|
|
|
It doesn't. you have to read the schematic carefully in conjunction with the text description and the bill of materials at the end. There are 9 transistors T1- T4, an unlabelled (T5), T6,7, and 8, and (T9) unlabelled and greyed out. T1, T2 and T8 are PNP transistors (note the arrow pointing inwards rather than outwards on the symbol), and the parts list gives 3 PNPs, which can be PN4250 or BC557. T6, T7 and the grey one (T9) are noted as PN3565 - and four of those are listed in the BoM. T3 and T4 are NPNs, and (to me) it makes sense that those are the two 2N5089/BC547 listed, since BC547s are the counterpart to BC557s, and T1-T4 are clearly all part of the same subcircuit. So T5 must be the fourth PN3565.
As andrewF said, this is NOT an easy build, and the schematics are not fully explained. Note I haven't built this myself, so the above is just my reading of Ken's webpages.
Good luck!
Peter |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Argitoth
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 6
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:07 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Ok got it, so you DO have to "figure it out..." but why? why do I have to figure it out, why can't it just tell me?
prgdeltablues wrote: | As andrewF said, this is NOT an easy build | why? why must it be difficult? just tell me what parts go where and how to wire it up. why can't it be that easy just like all the other DIY kits?
edit disclaimer: I'm not actually asking you to tell me what parts go where and how to wire it up. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
fluxmonkey
Joined: Jun 24, 2005 Posts: 708 Location: cleve
|
Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Arg: working out how the pcb traces match the schematic isnt hard, it just takes some work. it gets easier after you've done it a few times -- being handed the answer might be a short-term solution to this problem, but it would rob you of the opportunity to gain the skill for the next time.
otoh, this is the reason why many PCB designers put th component designators (T1, T2, T3 etc) on the board rather than the values... makes it explicit how the board and schematic match. it's a tradeoff, tho: having the values on the board makes it easier to stuff, having the designators makes it easier to troubleshoot. i prefer ken's approach, and it's what i do on the boards i design. very occasionally i've seen folks do both, but that becomes very cluttered....
keep at it, i'm sure you're a smart guy and can figure this out.
b _________________ www.fluxmonkey.com |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Argitoth
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 6
|
Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Hey thanks for explaning the ethos of all of this, I needed that...
But my mindset is always "I'm going to learn this so someone else doesn't have to, so someone else doesn't have to waste their money, waste their time with millions of mistakes, etc." Actually, that really explains my entire life. And it's the same with SDIY. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|