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JovianPyx
Joined: Nov 20, 2007 Posts: 1988 Location: West Red Spot, Jupiter
Audio files: 224
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject:
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Feature Creep... Hee hee hee _________________ FPGA, dsPIC and Fatman Synth Stuff
Time flies like a banana. Fruit flies when you're having fun. BTW, Do these genes make my ass look fat? corruptio optimi pessima
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:38 pm Post subject:
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Hey I found our simulator! It's none other than the venerable Spice 3f5, available for Macs in the very well documented and well coded form of MacSpice. You will find various front ends for Spice 3f5 on PC or Linux as well so we can post simulation files and share results.
I also did a search and found a library file: apparently it contains a digital model for *every* 4000 series CMOS device! wow, just what we need to do our simulations. Note that this does not include the 4500 devices but that's OK we should be able to redesign this thing properly using only 4000 devices.
Note also that many Spice front ends, MacSpice included, offer advanced features beyond the Spice 3f5 feature set. Do not use these as they will be incompatible with everyone else's Spice flavor. That said, we should be only using basic features anyway - transient simulations and timing diagrams, etc. So no problem just a caution to be aware of there.
I'm going to begin simulations tonight.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:02 pm Post subject:
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Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject:
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Talk about evolving Lunettas, this design is evolving too. I guess we can consider the first design to be an initial concept and now I'm looking at another. Specifically, a design that uses only one song generator and a huge population size stored in an SRAM.
Yes, SRAM. It's pure CMOS and nonvolatile so easy to work with and kosher for Lunettas being CMOS only. I like the 628128LP-85 (Jameco Part number 103982), 128k x 8 (1Mbit) part for $4.95 in quantity one as a DIP-32 package, data sheet attached.
A population size of 128k/8 is huge (16k members), more than enough for the job and I'm beginning to think of something more automated, like a circuit-based figure of merit (FOM). Audience selection is very slow and we can experiment with different figure of merit circuits, each of which will tend to produce a different result.
We can look at the SRAM data in creating a FOM, or do some processing of the analog output signal, or both, though I believe looking at the SRAM data alone will be most efficient.
Any ideas for a circuit based FOM?
Les
Description: |
a nice big fat juicy SRAM for only five bucks! |
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CMOS Static RAM HM628128D.pdf |
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155.95 KB |
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491 Time(s) |
_________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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JingleJoe
Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject:
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All your ideas sound good, Les
Inventor wrote: | Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.
Les |
WHAT!? But it's such a good shift register! If I can't get a few in the future, that's my latest design down the drain... _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:01 am Post subject:
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JingleJoe wrote: | All your ideas sound good, Les
Inventor wrote: | Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.
Les |
WHAT!? But it's such a good shift register! If I can't get a few in the future, that's my latest design down the drain... |
Well, just because a part is obsolete does not mean you cannot buy it. I'm sure you can find some on Ebay or maybe Electronics Gold Mine, places that deal with surplus stuff. But just don't use an obsolete part on a production design for a new product. For hobbling around, you can always grab a few... at a higher price usually.
Les
p.s. Jameco does not sell the part either. _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:19 am Post subject:
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OK, so the 4000 series CMOS library that I found is OrCAD dependent so it won't work with Spice, great. Next I'm searching the web for 4000 models and I run across this from Fairchild Semiconductor:
Quote: | Do you have CD4007UB Spice Model available?
The CD4000 products do not have spice models due to the age of the designs. This technology was first introduced around 1970. At that time, standardized modelling had not come into common use, and so there were no models ever produced for the CD4000 family. |
How about that? Well, I'm not really concerned about timing all that much since we are working with audio, so how about some behavioral models or something? Tough to find. TI does not have them either. I may have to make some myself...
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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JingleJoe
Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:12 am Post subject:
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Inventor wrote: | JingleJoe wrote: | All your ideas sound good, Les
Inventor wrote: | Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.
Les |
WHAT!? But it's such a good shift register! If I can't get a few in the future, that's my latest design down the drain... |
Well, just because a part is obsolete does not mean you cannot buy it. I'm sure you can find some on Ebay or maybe Electronics Gold Mine, places that deal with surplus stuff. But just don't use an obsolete part on a production design for a new product. For hobbling around, you can always grab a few... at a higher price usually.
Les
p.s. Jameco does not sell the part either. |
My local electronics supplier still has it, but I don't know how many. Probably a dwlindling stock ... anyone know of any other little CMOS shift registers? I am aware of the 4094, but it's only 8 bits opposed to the 18 bits of the 4006. _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories |
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Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:29 am Post subject:
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The CD4015 and CD4021 are 8 bits also. There are some shift registers in the CD4500 range also, but Jameco does not sell them either so they might be obsolete.
I've got a model of the CD40106 working but I can't get an oscillation simulation to work, just DC transfer function. This is common as oscillators in simulation are difficult to start and stable once started properly. I have tried specifying initial conditions, switching in the feedback resistor with a switch model, and adding "noise" sources. Well, I should just get on with the other devices.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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JovianPyx
Joined: Nov 20, 2007 Posts: 1988 Location: West Red Spot, Jupiter
Audio files: 224
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject:
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That's the hell part of simulators... They don't always dutifully simulate. There may be other ICs you can use in the simulator to mimic what you know the 40106 will do. Perhaps a 7555 timer? But you get what I mean.
I'd have done what you did, init conditions and some noise. But really I don't think that kind of oscillator needs noise to start, the cap voltage is either over/under the schmitt threshhold or it's not. So a standalone sim of a 40106 osc doesn't work? I'd try it just the osc, no cap voltage monitor circuit and see what happens. _________________ FPGA, dsPIC and Fatman Synth Stuff
Time flies like a banana. Fruit flies when you're having fun. BTW, Do these genes make my ass look fat? corruptio optimi pessima
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JingleJoe
Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:49 am Post subject:
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In my simulations when I want an oscillator I just stick in a signal generator which does exactly the same thing as my oscillator circuit
I have some spice models of 4000 series cmos, in a bit of an unusual format for my simulator but lots of ones which you may not be able to find around freely, if you want any give me a shout with the part number. _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
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Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:06 am Post subject:
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JingleJoe wrote: | In my simulations when I want an oscillator I just stick in a signal generator which does exactly the same thing as my oscillator circuit
I have some spice models of 4000 series cmos, in a bit of an unusual format for my simulator but lots of ones which you may not be able to find around freely, if you want any give me a shout with the part number. |
Well, I've branched this off to another thread which is here:
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-54195.html
I discuss the difficulty I'm having with transistor level simulations of register based devices, specifically the CD4013 and CD4015 parts. Do you have models for those Joe?
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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JingleJoe
Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:03 am Post subject:
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damn, don't seem to have any of those, I have more transistors and gates than I can count though! _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories |
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Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:09 am Post subject:
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JingleJoe wrote: | damn, don't seem to have any of those, I have more transistors and gates than I can count though! |
Yeah, those are the easy ones to model! I'm making progress on my models though, see related thread.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24081 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:24 am Post subject:
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PHOBoS wrote: | here's a graph showing what it does
(I found it on this page which by itself might be interesting) |
I did not realize it at the time ... but doesn't the rate multiplier output look a lot like an Euclidean Rhythm? _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5591 Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 705
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:08 am Post subject:
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Blue Hell wrote: | I did not realize it at the time ... but doesn't the rate multiplier output look a lot like an Euclidean Rhythm? |
I didn't know what a Euclidean Rhythm was at the time, but you're right, it does look a lot like it.
And I just noticed (or had forgotten) that the output is inverted from the CLK.
Too bad the CD4089 is difficult to get/expensive, because it makes a nice rhythm generator. _________________ "My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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