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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
first attempts at oscillators 40106 & 4093
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dirtyworm



Joined: Jun 22, 2011
Posts: 20
Location: new york

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: first attempts at oscillators 40106 & 4093 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I’ve been lurking for a long time now and finally am trying to actually make something beyond distortion pedals. I don’t have much experience; most of my schematics are hand drawn. I have bread boarded 2 oscillator circuits for the first lunette I ‘m working on. I hoping that any errors or improvements can be made on the bread board prior to soldering.

These 2 circuits are a mash up of some of the things I’ve seen about the forum and elsewhere. I've tried to add an additional triangle out but haven't had any successes yet.

CD40106
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/60600641@N04/8065701550/[/img]

CD4093
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/60600641@N04/8065701584/[/img]

cannot see pic have to look into that...
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Psyingo



Joined: Jun 11, 2009
Posts: 247
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
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dirtyworm



Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks.

basic osc with mod inputs for freq, gate with trans, and width type thing from Bugbrands osc.
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Psyingo



Joined: Jun 11, 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

on the 40106 schematic... pin 1 of IC1A is tied to ground... and the caps go to ground... im not sure thats what you had intended when you drew it.

also, these schematics are kinda hard for me to understand, just the way the grounds are referenced. i've seen that before... but not quite like that.

and apparently S3 switches between ground and... ground?
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dirtyworm



Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I had a hard time trying to make it clear. I'll have to clean it up for future ref to trouble shoot.

Ground wire was not deleted. Just the caps go to ground. I'll have to get that.

S2 & S3 is connected to ground by pin 1 and pin 3 go to IC1A pin 1 but that is incorrect now that I see it, it should go after the resistor to the pot.
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dirtyworm



Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I revised the drawing of the circuit. I hope that it is more readable. Embarassed

simple enough circuits that are on here already.

so what is my issue:
I bread boarded the circuits on the other pins and ran into problems I didn’t notice before. The transistor being used as a gate causes problems for the other oscillators, if I leave the input to the gate it can be heard in the other osc. I'm not sure what it is that is causing it...perhaps the emitter tied to ground Question work fine once I removed it. Problem is thats the part I really wanted to keep, I wanted to be able to gate it there on the osc itself.

also having problems with the freq modulation, it does little for it at higher frequencies. I changed it out on the bread board some something a bit easier, dropped the transistor and switch and replaced the higher value resistor with a one much lower. Again another part I really don't want to eliminate.


CD40106 Sqr Osc draft v1_01 revised drawing.jpg
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dirtyworm



Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the help.

In the end I’ve removed the transistors connections to ground.

For the gate that I wanted to keep I used a NAND gate based on a website I ran to while googling:
http://www.noding.com/la8ak/c25.htm

It helped out and solves the problem enough for me that I think I can move on to the other elements.

I changed the freq mods that solve the interference with the other osc but I’m not happy with them.

I didn’t add the LED in. I find that adding it changes my pitch range. I didn’t like that much. I don’t know how to add it in without that happening, I search around I’m sure there is an answer to such a question already.


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dirtyworm



Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been reading around the forum and bumped into Stavin Marvin posted by PHOBos. The circuit shows an LED connected to a transistor from the out pin(s) of the 40106 oscillator. I have tried doing this prior having also seen the same setup on MFOS. Tonight, I tried it again tonight thinking this has to work and will do what I need; I simply need to light the LED without altering my frequency, instead of a LED/Resistor to ground combination which drops the range that I want.

I breadboarded up 2 oscillators and tried it. The problem I am having is the LFO oscillator output is modulating the other oscillator, even when the LFO is disconnected from the output. If I remove the transistors connection to ground on the LFO I don’t have this happening. I have also experienced this with the LED/Resistor combination to ground it’s just not as drastic.

I don’t know what is causing this, I simply do not know enough about anything to figure it out. I’ve goodled and searched but don’t have a clue. I am assuming that its my breadboard? Is it due something happening on the ground power rail? Is something to do with the transistors?

The attachment has the circuit that I breadboarded. Outlined the areas I believe might be causing me problems. I'm running it at 5V with a 7805.

I’m really lost on this and would like to understand it.


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bubzy



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

its quite common for LFO's to affect other circuits,
im not an expert on CMOS but i think that if you are building 2 oscillators on the same 40106 that you are almost guaranteed to have some form of interference. so heres a couple of things to try.

1. use seperate chips for seperate functions (this does kinda waste the 5 other oscillator possibilities on the 40106)
2. use a decoupling capacitor, this is a relatively low value(100nf) cap that goes between your +v rail and GND, you can think of it as a "backup power source" that the chip can draw from if the psu is struggling
3. check the output of your PSU and make sure that your circuit is not drawing more current than it can supply, this is quite common and interference is often the effect of starving. although almost all psu's can deliver enough to supply a couple of cmos chips.

additionally, is there any reason you are running at 5v? most cmos chips will run happily up to 15v, this *might* give you a result.

again, im no expert, just a fiddler. some boffin will correct me soon enough Razz

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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with Buzby that one oscillator on a circuit can affect another, especially if those circuits exist on the same chip. The Cacophonator is an example of a design which utilises this effect:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-40593-50.html

As for the 5V supply question, there may be an explanation of this by Brock in the following thread:

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=4504&t=54945

I've had problems with LED drivers affecting other circuits. By a process of trial and error (very little science) I found that quite a large decoupling capacitor across the driver/LED circuit seems to help (see below - a small detail from my sequencer circuit, with the input through the 1K0 resistor). This needs to be mounted physically close to the circuit (in the case below to the transistor collector and the LED cathode). I'll probably be told that this value is far too large, but it seemed to work for me.

However, all of this does depend on the current supplying ability of the power supply. I'm using a mains powered 12V 1A regulated supply. If a battery is the supply source, there may be more problems. However, the down side of using my power supply is that if you get something seriously wrong (e.g. an accidental short) you are much more likely to fry your chips!

Gary


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Psyingo



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are you decoupling your power supply? Some big caps, say above 100 uf and 100nf on the power pin of every chip? Decoupling if extremely important.
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dirtyworm



Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks.
I suspected that running several circuits on the chip might be part of the problem. I listened to my WSG to hear if I had the same problem, I didn’t seem to hear it which is why I was suspecting my breadboard or the LED with the trans. I’ll make 2 osc on different chips and see what happens.

As far as 5V there is a reason, although I am thinking of making it 12v via a regulator, I was having a problem with the CD4070’s at 9v, battery power with no regulator; after I changed it to 5v the 4070’s worked great so I just kept it.

Analog_backlash I tried that and it reduced the affect tremendously. I have to try it the way you have it set up, I kept the LED going to +V after I post this I set it up like you have it see what the difference is.

Edit: OK different boards, separate chips. I can still hear a hint of the LFO. Seems to work out fine.
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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Psyingo wrote:
Are you decoupling your power supply? Some big caps, say above 100 uf and 100nf on the power pin of every chip? Decoupling if extremely important.


Yes. I am using a 100uF electro cap. Pin 7 is to ground. Pin 14 to +V and pos lead of cap, the neg lead to ground.

I’ve also tried placing the negative lead to pin 7 and ground.

Edit: I don’t know if this would make a difference, but I added an additional 100uF cap and 470nF cap right after the regulator, I say additional because I already have 100uF caps on each chip. It seems to have improved it even when I run the circuits on the same chip.
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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm glad that it has improved things dirtyworm. I thought that it might help.
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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was poking around the different outputs that I have in the osc that I am working on and noticed one of the circuits has LP filtering. I duplicated it without changing the width of the shape as I have a control for that.

I found that the signal would get weak when I applied it so I included a emitter follower and it seems to fix the issue a little.

I’m sure what I’m doing is not really correct but it was interesting. I would like to improve it.


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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a view of it. changing the width with the filtering. first frame is straight forward. Second the filtering circuit. the the rest is width being narrowed.

Edit: I just realized after some playing around i don't need it going to the IC. I don't remember why I did that, looking at it afterwards I realized it just a simple tone stack.


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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My not so great project from this weekend, a touch controlled gate and freq modulation source. I was looking at a circuit from another thread, the 5 note Lunetta and was make a version that used all 6 possible osc’s but only trigger the oscillator not change its cap value, rather a sort of touch sensitive gate on/off. I realized it would be more useful to me to have a controller that would work with the other oscillators that I’m working on and have a constant value rather than a changing one that would act more like an running LFO. This is what I came up with, I wanted to use a cmos IC for the touch trigger but I don’t have the one I’d need so I used transistors. I found that I need to place 470K pull down resistor on the 100K resistor to the base lead. I was getting a slight trigger of the transistors if I touch the pad several times and than just the one to the base without the connection to the +V. The 470K remedied that for the bread board version at least.

I most likely will add pots to the outputs for the freq mod output so I can control the amount going out and move the LED so if I bypass the trigger and ground the connection to pin 1 the LED will not light up.

I really don’t know if this would be of interest to anyone but I’m finding a bit a fun I play with it. I’m sure I’ve done many things incorrectly but it’s work for now.


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trav



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this isn't as important as the grounding of unused gates issue in the 5-note lunetta thread, where both inputs and outputs were grounded: here you've correctly grounded only the inputs (pins 11 and 13), but there's no need to waste a 100k resistor on each; unused cmos inputs can be tied directly to ground. The only inputs you want to tie to ground thru a pulldown resistor are ones that are sometimes hanging, usually thru a jack being unplugged. When you unplug a signal from the input the gate then gets a steady LOW signal thru the resistor to ground. Plug something in again and you'll get whatever signal is coming thru the jack.

That said, I haven't had any issues leaving whole gates hanging in chips like the 40106, using only as many as I need. Maybe someone can tell me whether there is any problem in this approach. Is it necessary to ground all unused inputs even where there are multiple separate gates within a chip?

edit: sorry for being slightly off-topic, dirtyworm. it looks like a fun oscillator thing you've made. sounds?
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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right there is no need for the 100K resistor on the unused inputs it just needs to be tied to ground or depending on IC to the +V. I’m remembering it being said here on the forum somewhere, the 100k is for impedance purposes for when the something is being plugged in and out. The unused input are being used now I taken 2 of the outputs and run them to the input which gives me the inversion of the other. Just another option and I can use the whole IC that way.

However, there are problems. playing with it tonight I realized that the touch control, on one board and the osc on another, changes the pitch even when its not connected to any of the inputs of the osc, its interfering somehow. different boards and IC’s with their own caps to reservoir power both the IC pin 7 &14 and the whole board, not sure that means anything though.

There is some fundamental I’m missing here, I know that I am inexperienced and do not know much about electronics. I plan on making all of this modular, so each with have it own board and a connection to the power. I planned on send the 5V from the regulator out to all the boards. How do I minimize such interference between circuits on each board?
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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Made a few adjustments to the controller I posted previously. I added external inputs and a 4017. I also removed the transistors for a de-bounce circuit with a momentary switch. I added some pots to the output which give me some variety on the output, it doesn’t do much when I run it out to a gate input but it works for the frequency modulation.

I find the LED to ground with a 1K resistor are needed to get the gate that I want on the osc's. I was able to step through a 4017 with the output set up to the clock input by touching the momentary switch as well, I really liked that.

wondering if I need a 100K oull down to ground on the paths from the 4017 to the 40106's inputs?

Edit: I made an error in the schematic, the switch for the momentary is push-to-break, on(off) type of spst. If push-to-make is used the LED's will reverse from the input and sequencer modes. I have looked but I don't see an spst type of switch that I am looking for in the lilbrary.


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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having a bit of trouble with building a sequencer for the oscillators I have, I start with the baby 10 thinking that is simplest place to start. The sequencer that I current have working, only in 4 steps, I’m attaching below perhaps others will have a better way to accomplish this.

The problem that I am having is getting the gate to work at one output. I eventually have what I am using through trial and error, no theory at all. I made an AND gate at the end just to give it that punctuation on each gate from the 4017. I would like to change that out to a CD4081 but I’ll have to order it, but I’ll wait until I see if there is a better solution. I was only able to get the sequencer to work with NAND logic sent into the input of the 40106. This is what I have my oscillators using as a gate anyway, but I’m unsure if it will work with anything else, as I don’t have anything else at this time.

I’ve tried several schematics I found online but none of them seem to really do it, individual gate will work fine but a linear sequence no, most likely due to the way I have the oscillators set up, and the ones that I’m sure would work are more complicated then I want for this, I want to keep it as simple as I can.

I didn’t tie the pots to ground as I didn’t like the way that work for my oscillators but I have to try it again seeing that is how most schematics seem to do it.

I still have to figure out how to get LED’s in there but my breadboards have no room left.

since it is working with the osc that I have I'm thinking maybe I just keep it, and change the AND gates to the 4081 or at least see if they make it easier when I have to actually solder this up...

Im still running at 5V so I don't know if it will work at at 9v or more.

being a noob is fustrating...


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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not entirely following what you're trying to do. The core is straightforward enough, as are the blocks above it, but once I get into the upper right, I lose track of things.

Questions occur to me like: do you mean to have a pull-up resistor on that transistor? That would make it invert the incoming signal.

What are you trying to do with the 100k & 10k resistor and diode banks to the right and bottom?

If I just focus on a single pin out, it looks to me like one of the diodes bypasses the other leg of the circuit, see the attachment. the left path is the diode & resistor to the right, and the other is the first diode going down.


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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The far top right is the oscillator itself that I was testing everything on. The dotted line is just there to point to which input and outputs I was connectinh them to. After the 4017 there are three paths that break off to folded, the top is to modulate freq, the right is all 8 gates to a single output, the bottom to output single steps. At the end of each gate the is an AND logic with incoming signal from the path and the clock input. The pull down resistors are the only way I could get it to work without the LED's...no theory just trying stuff till it worked, I'm sure there is a better way to do it. Just having the OR logic with AND at the end didn't work for me.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can think about current like water. That single diode offers a lot less resistance to the flow, so most of the current is going to go that way, and almost none will go through the one with the two resistors attached.
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dirtyworm



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wasn't thinking that a pull down to ground with a resistor after it was the same as two resistors in series.

I'll re-draw only a portion of it tonight to just test one part of it.
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