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astroman
Joined: Sep 13, 2012 Posts: 44 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:58 am Post subject:
Nand/nor/xor gate headaches |
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Ok........taking my first steps in nand gates.....finding it hard especially when they have 3 or more inputs....how do you make such a device oscillate?
Also issues with 4093's.........I thought pin 1 should be connected to + in order to get them to oscillate. Mine sometimes do so without.
I'm sure a killer module could be had with a 3 input nand etc?
Cheers!!! |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5581 Location: Moon Base
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:08 am Post subject:
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you're probably refering to the standard one gate oscillators,. for these you need a schmitt trigger gate (like 40106 or 4093).
It doesn't work with a standard inverting gate. (there are designs for that too that but you need more then one gate).
as for tying pin 1, or at least one of the inputs, to +. its need to be high when the other pin is high (doesn't matter
what state it's in when the other pin is low). So you can connect it to either + or to the other pin. As long as you
don't connect it to GND it will work. Leaving it unconnected will cause it to be unpredictable. It might work sometimes,
but it's also sensitive to noise, so better not to do that.
the nice thing about a CD4093 is that you can also use this pin to modulate it by connecting it to the ouput of another
oscillator, or whatever you want to modulate it with. _________________ "My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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astroman
Joined: Sep 13, 2012 Posts: 44 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:12 am Post subject:
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Thanks........thants made it a bit clearer!!!
Any ideas for 4002's? |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5581 Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 705
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:30 am Post subject:
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well they are inverting gates, and with 2 of those you van make an oscillator (you can find an example here)
But you probably want to do something fancy with the 4 inputs
maybe something like I did with the Jingler, but that's a very unpredicatble device.
or build a basic 2 inverter oscillator with the 2 gates and add different signals to the other pins
(maybe some oscillators). experiment! _________________ "My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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astroman
Joined: Sep 13, 2012 Posts: 44 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:34 am Post subject:
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Lots of stuff to think about and try.......Thanks again!!! |
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analog_backlash
Joined: Sep 04, 2012 Posts: 393 Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:22 am Post subject:
Simple Idea |
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Here's a very simple idea that I've just tried using a 4093 and half of an 4002. It seems to make quite interesting noises... None of the component values are set in stone. You could try varying the values.
Bit of a short post as I need to rush off now.
Gary
AMENDED
I did that in such a rush that I left a couple of details out. I've now added these in red.
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Last edited by analog_backlash on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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astroman
Joined: Sep 13, 2012 Posts: 44 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:53 am Post subject:
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That's the sort of thing I want to do!!! Thank for that!!! |
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astroman
Joined: Sep 13, 2012 Posts: 44 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject:
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Forgive my ignorance but could a 40106 be used instead of a 4093? Sounds great, many thanx for your time! |
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analog_backlash
Joined: Sep 04, 2012 Posts: 393 Location: Aldershot, UK
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject:
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Yes, there will be no problem using 40106 oscillators instead of the 4093 ones (and the advantage is that you have potentially 2 more of them).
I've been playing a bit further with the idea, to try to use the other half of the 4002. If you put the same inputs into IC2b as IC2a, you will get the same signal out (a bit boring), so I've just used 2 of the oscillator outputs as IC2b inputs and left the other two at 0V. For a 4-input NOR gate, you only get a high output when all 4 inputs are low, so don't connect them to 9V or else nothing will happen! I've then used 2 pots and 2 diodes to mix the signals from the outputs of IC2a and IC2b. The diodes were added as without them, if you turned one output to fully off, the second one also cut out. The 2 outputs do still affect each other, but in more subtle ways. I could also have used 3 oscillator inputs plus one pin to 0V on both NOR gates (but choosing different combinations of 3 from 4 on each, if you see what I mean). If you have 6 oscillators from a 40106, the possibilities get even more interesting (e.g. Oscillators 1, 2 & 3 plus 1 input to 0V on IC2a and oscillators 4, 5 & 6 plus one input to 0V on IC2b). This may possibly give better results.
I've also increased the power supply capacitor from 100uf to 470uf and added a couple of switches to the 9V supply input. With the toggle (or slide) switch closed, the circuits works as before. With it open, you can press the pushbutton for a short period (turning the circuit on) and then release it (turning it off) and then you get interesting decaying effects. That's why I put a bigger capacitor in, as they last longer, the bigger the capacitor value is.
Anyway, it's still very rough at the moment, so there's definitely room for improvement. I'll do a recording tomorrow and post the results (I'm now very tempted to try the 40106 idea above, as it may have more potential).
ANOTHER AMENDMENT
Forget the diodes - use capacitors. They give better results.
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analog_backlash
Joined: Sep 04, 2012 Posts: 393 Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:07 am Post subject:
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Hello again,
I've not been too impressed by the results of my mixing experiements, so I haven't posted any more sounds yet. I can confirm that the first circuit does work just as well with 40106 oscillators. Remember that any of the unused inverter inputs should be connected to 0V (e.g. pins 11 and 13 if you use the first four inverters as oscillators). If I come up with something that does sound impressive, I'll let you know what I've done.
Gary |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5581 Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 705
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:11 am Post subject:
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The circuit (first one) you came up with is nice, but (and I didn't want to mention it ) it's the same as when you
would use some diodes to mix the signals together, except that the result is inverted (which you won't hear) and maybe
there is a difference in amplitude.
The second one adds a bit extra with the level control,. but probably not a whole lot. Of course there's nothing wrong
with it, but using diodes instead of the NOR's is probably easier.
The only thing I can come up with is what I mentioned before, make an oscillator with the two gates and see
what happens if you add signals to the other inputs. I don't have a 4002 here myself (I think), but I'll see if I can
draw a schematic to try. _________________ "My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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analog_backlash
Joined: Sep 04, 2012 Posts: 393 Location: Aldershot, UK
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5581 Location: Moon Base
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:02 am Post subject:
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yes that's what I meant
(with some extra signals on the second gate aswell)
No idea if the result is interesting, but I'll bet it does something.
suggestion,. make an oscillator using only 1 pin on each gate and use pulldown resistors for the other pins,
once that works you can add signals to the other pins.
edit: even if I don't have a 4002, I might have another NOR chip, if so I'll do a test myself too. _________________ "My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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analog_backlash
Joined: Sep 04, 2012 Posts: 393 Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:10 am Post subject:
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Hmmm. Not sure that it does anything too different, but here are a couple of mp3s and the schematic I tried out. The inputs of the 4002 are shown in the kind of random way I connected them. It shouldn't make any difference which round they are. The second file uses the pushbutton followed by decay.
See what you think,
Gary
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5581 Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 705
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:35 am Post subject:
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analog_backlash wrote: | Hmmm. Not sure that it does anything too different, but here are a couple of mp3s and the schematic I tried out. The inputs of the 4002 are shown in the kind of random way I connected them. It shouldn't make any difference which round they are. The second file uses the pushbutton followed by decay.
See what you think,
Gary |
Is it different sounding then other multioscillator circuits, hmm probably not too much. But it works and you got
some nice sounds out of it
I didn't have any 4002's, and no 4001 either. So I used an XOR instead .
It works different than a NOR of course, but I wanted to try it anyway. I did get some stepped (APC like) sounds
out of it, and it behaves a bit weird. The breaking up is not a bad pot it just does that
so here's the schematic and a demo.
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Yo Dawg, I herd you like oscillators,.. |
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_________________ "My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5581 Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 705
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analog_backlash
Joined: Sep 04, 2012 Posts: 393 Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject:
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Your Osception Demo sounds pretty good and more varied than my recording (although I listened to mine again and it sounded better than I thought). The APC-like dividing effect on yours is very noticeable. Do you know how it's doing that? On the original APC it's an astable fed into a monostable (as I understand it) - I don't know if the same sort of thing is happening with your set-up.
I've just tried my circuit on a 12V supply and it sounded different to the 9V battery (I'm not sure if it's better, just different). I might try playing with a 4070 (or 4077?) on mine, just to see what happens. I did try some LDRs last night, playing it with a torch, which made some good swoopy noises. I should have recorded that as well. It's easy to put them back in and try it again.
I'll post anything that sounds interesting. |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5581 Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 705
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