electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Nand/nor/xor gate headaches
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: mosc
Page 1 of 1 [18 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
astroman



Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 44
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject:  Nand/nor/xor gate headaches Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Embarassed
Ok........taking my first steps in nand gates.....finding it hard especially when they have 3 or more inputs....how do you make such a device oscillate?
Also issues with 4093's.........I thought pin 1 should be connected to + in order to get them to oscillate. Mine sometimes do so without. Rolling Eyes
I'm sure a killer module could be had with a 3 input nand etc?

Cheers!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1703
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 346

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you're probably refering to the standard one gate oscillators,. for these you need a schmitt trigger gate (like 40106 or 4093).
It doesn't work with a standard inverting gate. (there are designs for that too that but you need more then one gate).

as for tying pin 1, or at least one of the inputs, to +. its need to be high when the other pin is high (doesn't matter
what state it's in when the other pin is low). So you can connect it to either + or to the other pin. As long as you
don't connect it to GND it will work. Leaving it unconnected will cause it to be unpredictable. It might work sometimes,
but it's also sensitive to noise, so better not to do that. no no

the nice thing about a CD4093 is that you can also use this pin to modulate it by connecting it to the ouput of another
oscillator, or whatever you want to modulate it with. Very Happy

_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
astroman



Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 44
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks........thants made it a bit clearer!!!
Any ideas for 4002's?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1703
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 346

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well they are inverting gates, and with 2 of those you van make an oscillator (you can find an example here)

But you probably want to do something fancy with the 4 inputs Wink

maybe something like I did with the Jingler, but that's a very unpredicatble device.
or build a basic 2 inverter oscillator with the 2 gates and add different signals to the other pins
(maybe some oscillators). experiment! Razz

_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
astroman



Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 44
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lots of stuff to think about and try.......Thanks again!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Simple Idea Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a very simple idea that I've just tried using a 4093 and half of an 4002. It seems to make quite interesting noises... None of the component values are set in stone. You could try varying the values.

Bit of a short post as I need to rush off now.

Gary

AMENDED

I did that in such a rush that I left a couple of details out. I've now added these in red.


4093 + 4002 Experiment (Amended).jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  191.84 KB
 Viewed:  81 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

4093 + 4002 Experiment (Amended).jpg



Experiment 1.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Experiment 1.mp3
 Filesize:  2.23 MB
 Downloaded:  146 Time(s)


Last edited by analog_backlash on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astroman



Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 44
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's the sort of thing I want to do!!! Thank for that!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astroman



Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 44
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Forgive my ignorance but could a 40106 be used instead of a 4093? Sounds great, many thanx for your time!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, there will be no problem using 40106 oscillators instead of the 4093 ones (and the advantage is that you have potentially 2 more of them).

I've been playing a bit further with the idea, to try to use the other half of the 4002. If you put the same inputs into IC2b as IC2a, you will get the same signal out (a bit boring), so I've just used 2 of the oscillator outputs as IC2b inputs and left the other two at 0V. For a 4-input NOR gate, you only get a high output when all 4 inputs are low, so don't connect them to 9V or else nothing will happen! I've then used 2 pots and 2 diodes to mix the signals from the outputs of IC2a and IC2b. The diodes were added as without them, if you turned one output to fully off, the second one also cut out. The 2 outputs do still affect each other, but in more subtle ways. I could also have used 3 oscillator inputs plus one pin to 0V on both NOR gates (but choosing different combinations of 3 from 4 on each, if you see what I mean). If you have 6 oscillators from a 40106, the possibilities get even more interesting (e.g. Oscillators 1, 2 & 3 plus 1 input to 0V on IC2a and oscillators 4, 5 & 6 plus one input to 0V on IC2b). This may possibly give better results.

I've also increased the power supply capacitor from 100uf to 470uf and added a couple of switches to the 9V supply input. With the toggle (or slide) switch closed, the circuits works as before. With it open, you can press the pushbutton for a short period (turning the circuit on) and then release it (turning it off) and then you get interesting decaying effects. That's why I put a bigger capacitor in, as they last longer, the bigger the capacitor value is.

Anyway, it's still very rough at the moment, so there's definitely room for improvement. I'll do a recording tomorrow and post the results (I'm now very tempted to try the 40106 idea above, as it may have more potential).

ANOTHER AMENDMENT

Forget the diodes - use capacitors. They give better results.


Son of 4093 + 4002 Experiment (Amended).jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  245.85 KB
 Viewed:  81 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

Son of 4093 + 4002 Experiment (Amended).jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again,

I've not been too impressed by the results of my mixing experiements, so I haven't posted any more sounds yet. I can confirm that the first circuit does work just as well with 40106 oscillators. Remember that any of the unused inverter inputs should be connected to 0V (e.g. pins 11 and 13 if you use the first four inverters as oscillators). If I come up with something that does sound impressive, I'll let you know what I've done.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1703
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 346

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The circuit (first one) you came up with is nice, but (and I didn't want to mention it Rolling Eyes ) it's the same as when you
would use some diodes to mix the signals together, except that the result is inverted (which you won't hear) and maybe
there is a difference in amplitude.

The second one adds a bit extra with the level control,. but probably not a whole lot. Of course there's nothing wrong
with it, but using diodes instead of the NOR's is probably easier.

The only thing I can come up with is what I mentioned before, make an oscillator with the two gates and see
what happens if you add signals to the other inputs. I don't have a 4002 here myself (I think), but I'll see if I can
draw a schematic to try.

_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I'm sure you're right that you could do the same thing with diodes. I didn't think that I had any 4002s, but I looked and I had 5 of them (God knows why..). So I just thought I'd have a play around with them. With the latter (mixed) circuit it is quite hard to produce anything other than (kind of) slowed down white noise, unless you are very precise with the pot positions.

Did you mean this kind of thing, for your idea?

I'm not sure where the black box around the drawing came from, but I quite like it...


4002 Oscillator.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  49.56 KB
 Viewed:  70 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

4002 Oscillator.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1703
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 346

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes that's what I meant Very Happy
(with some extra signals on the second gate aswell)
No idea if the result is interesting, but I'll bet it does something.

suggestion,. make an oscillator using only 1 pin on each gate and use pulldown resistors for the other pins,
once that works you can add signals to the other pins.

edit: even if I don't have a 4002, I might have another NOR chip, if so I'll do a test myself too.

_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm. Not sure that it does anything too different, but here are a couple of mp3s and the schematic I tried out. The inputs of the 4002 are shown in the kind of random way I connected them. It shouldn't make any difference which round they are. The second file uses the pushbutton followed by decay.

See what you think,

Gary


Cousin of 4093 + 4002 Experiment.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  181.39 KB
 Viewed:  69 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

Cousin of 4093 + 4002 Experiment.jpg



Experiment 2a.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Experiment 2a.mp3
 Filesize:  3.91 MB
 Downloaded:  131 Time(s)


Experiment 2b.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Experiment 2b.mp3
 Filesize:  2.21 MB
 Downloaded:  123 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1703
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 346

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

analog_backlash wrote:
Hmmm. Not sure that it does anything too different, but here are a couple of mp3s and the schematic I tried out. The inputs of the 4002 are shown in the kind of random way I connected them. It shouldn't make any difference which round they are. The second file uses the pushbutton followed by decay.

See what you think,

Gary

Is it different sounding then other multioscillator circuits, hmm probably not too much. But it works and you got
some nice sounds out of it Very Happy

I didn't have any 4002's, and no 4001 either. So I used an XOR instead Rolling Eyes.
It works different than a NOR of course, but I wanted to try it anyway. I did get some stepped (APC like) sounds
out of it, and it behaves a bit weird. The breaking up is not a bad pot it just does that Wink

so here's the schematic and a demo.


Osception.gif
 Description:
Yo Dawg, I herd you like oscillators,..
 Filesize:  10.55 KB
 Viewed:  4168 Time(s)

Osception.gif



PHOBoS - Osception Demo (Oct 31, 2012).mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  PHOBoS - Osception Demo (Oct 31, 2012).mp3
 Filesize:  2.5 MB
 Downloaded:  149 Time(s)


_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1703
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 346

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And just for the fun of it, here's a larger version with all the gates used Cool
I might actually build it on a piece of perf, with LDR's for the 2 NAND Oscillators (U1b, U1d), maybe for the
other ones (U2a..U2d) aswell. And an external modulation input for the main modulation oscillator (U1a).
edit: did a quick test powering it with a solar cell Laughing
makes it a lot more interesting,. together with some LDR's this might be a fun little solar powered noisemaker.

hmm this doesn't have anything to do with the NOR anymore, but I wanted to post it Embarassed
edit: oh, but there's XOR in the thread title Smile


OsceptionV2.gif
 Description:
 Filesize:  23.2 KB
 Viewed:  83 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

OsceptionV2.gif



_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Aldershot, UK
Audio files: 21

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Your Osception Demo sounds pretty good and more varied than my recording (although I listened to mine again and it sounded better than I thought). The APC-like dividing effect on yours is very noticeable. Do you know how it's doing that? On the original APC it's an astable fed into a monostable (as I understand it) - I don't know if the same sort of thing is happening with your set-up.

I've just tried my circuit on a 12V supply and it sounded different to the 9V battery (I'm not sure if it's better, just different). I might try playing with a 4070 (or 4077?) on mine, just to see what happens. I did try some LDRs last night, playing it with a torch, which made some good swoopy noises. I should have recorded that as well. It's easy to put them back in and try it again.

I'll post anything that sounds interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1703
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 346

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

analog_backlash wrote:
The APC-like dividing effect on yours is very noticeable. Do you know how it's doing that? On the original APC it's an astable fed into a monostable (as I understand it) - I don't know if the same sort of thing is happening with your set-up.

I don't really know why it happens but I do know the it's the NAND oscillator that has both in-
and output attached to the XOR oscillator that is responsible, which made me wonder about something


so I just gave it a quick test and it does actually work (probably nothing new,. but I don't think I had tried it before)
I'll try a setup with 4 NAND's in a circle tomorrow.


doublenandosc.gif
 Description:
 Filesize:  6.27 KB
 Viewed:  4104 Time(s)

doublenandosc.gif



_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: mosc
Page 1 of 1 [18 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use