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Synbal
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Synbal Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All,

This same basic circuit is in the Synbal a project from E&MM Feb. 1983:

There is a Synbal (and Syntom) PCB floating around the web. I have built up one PCB for this and have another waiting to populate. With the filter on board it works very well. I will say that the overall pitch of the oscillators is rather unstable if there are any power supply glitches.

I can post the PCB if anybody wants it.

Regards,

Tim

[Note Blue Hell: this was split off from http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-20622.html where it started as a striking similarity, now turning into a project ]


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Nosferatu



Joined: Jul 27, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Synbal noise / cymbal circuit Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Synbal, syntom, syndrum.

Edit: Many thanks to bluhell for maintaining thread consistency.

Last edited by Nosferatu on Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THeff,

thanks for posting this... as i posted before, there's plenty of precidence for mixing multiple oscs together via gates, nice to see another example in the context of this discussion. including a filter has obvious advantages, a'la MFOS's WeirdSoundGenerator... would be great to get the PCB layout if you don't mind.

and gratitutde extends to anyone who goes out of their way to post information to add to the collective knowbase... your generosity deserves only praise, not public scolding...

b
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THeff



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Synbal...more info Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi bbob,

Thanks for noticing the similarity!

Hmmm...let me see 6 cmos oscillators using 40106 inverters, mixed with 4070 xor gates, and a pitch adjustment by setting the oscillator B+ voltage. Seems rather similar to the schematic at the top of this thread!

The Synbal is only a percussion device if you use it that way. Change the feedback resistors in the cmos oscillators with potentiometers and you will get amazing "machine sounds". You also get a white noise generator, nice voltage controlled filter, trigger circuit, and stereo panning.

I only mentioned it on this thread to let people know that the pcb from this article is on the web and might make it a lot easier to build.

I was going to remove it until I noticed that it had been viewed 12 times, so I guess there is some interest out there.

Anyway, the pcb is attached and I will add the rest of the article to show the parts placement on the pcb. The article was scanned by a guy that goes by the name "Synth Ollie" so he gets all the credit! Laughing

Enjoy,

Tim


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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Synbal...more info Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THeff wrote:
Seems rather similar to the schematic at the top of this thread!


Yup, I think so. Still this is developing into a new project that deserves a thread of it's own. So I'll be splitting off some posts to a new topic "Synbal".

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factus10



Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Awesome! I've been thinking about the EM&M drum circuits of late. So... what about the Syntom, etc Wink
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THeff



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Syntom II, also... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi factus10,

The Syntom II article is here:

http://www.experimentalistsanonymous.com/diy/forums.html?subdir=Schematics%2FFull%20Synths%20Drum%20Synths%20and%20Misc%20Synth&sortby=name

The PCB is attached. Once again the credit for the PCB scan goes to Synth Ollie.

Enjoy,

Tim


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synth_ollie



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Synbal...more info Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THeff wrote:
The article was scanned by a guy that goes by the name "Synth Ollie" so he gets all the credit! Laughing


I guess that must be me then! Very Happy
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23isgood



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This circuit is almost exactly like Ken Stone's, Cynare. I would like to build one of these.
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THeff



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject:  Greetings to Synth Ollie Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Synth Ollie!

We have never spoken before, but thank you for scanning these pages. I have made several of the Synbal and Syntom II pcbs as a result of your efforts and they work great. I perfboarded the MIDI/Trigger section from Trevor Pages's 9090 and it works very well as the controller for Synbal, Syntom II and other misc. percussion circuits floating around. I have also triggered these guys from the Klee 2 sequencer and that was fun. I want to setup a complete percussion section similar to the Russian link that was on YouTube. It looks like the web link for the Russian sight has been removed.

Thanks again!

Regards,

Tim
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
your generosity deserves only praise,


Especially in light of the fact you're the only guy I know who could perf the thing up in the time it took to write the post Laughing

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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject:  Perfboards... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Scott, but I must of told you a million times not ro exaggerate! Laughing

Tim
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ickystay



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Big thanks to synth_ollie!
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San



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyone with music samples?
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n.d



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not my channel, but here are some useful videos, soundwise..

https://www.youtube.com/user/tecbugdemos?feature=watch
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Ruebezahl



Joined: Mar 09, 2014
Posts: 32
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi!

I am trying to build the synbal (and later the syntom) right now. Already etched the board, and i am shopping for the parts now. Apparently some of the semi-conductors are not avaivable easily anymore. I wanted to ask the people who already built it or who could guess by experience, to suggest alternatives. Note, that i am not really picky, and take whatever sounds more or less the same. i dont care much, if it sounds exactly like the original one

IC2: "LM13600", an amplifier chip with 16 pins. "Dual transconductance amplifier", its used at two points in the circuit. first for buffering the envelope, wich is coming out of the decay-control. second for filtering of the signal.----when i searched for this ic i got a result for an LM13700, wich would be available. after a quick internet seach it seems to be very closely related, and also pincompatible. seems like i could use this one instead, but i better ask here before.

IC3: "CA3080" Its, like the LM13600 an operational transconductance Amplifier, and the predecessor of said chip. apparently i could use LM13700 if it was just for the function. but it has much more pins and is not pincompatible. so any help here?
Edit: i just found this chip on reichelt, a german onlineshop. but its 10€ with shipping. plus i read about fake chips around, so i dont know, better have an alternative.

IC4: "741". Not sure about this one. If the LM741 is meant by this its no problem. i think i even still have one at home.

IC101: "4558 or TL1458". According to the text its used in the final stereo mixing stage. i dont even find a datasheet for TL1458 and for 4558 i find several different chips, but just one of them has 8 pins, like needed. Its the RC4558 P, wich you can find here: http://www.segor.de/#Q%3DRC4558P%26M%3D1
do you think this one is suitable? also i am not sure if this final stereo mixing stage is needed if i want just a mono out. there is something in the text about it, but i am not sure if a understood already.

Thanks for your help!

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wackelpeter



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

You can easily replace the LM13600 with a LM13700 and in fact the CA3080 can also be substituted with a LM13700... The CA3080 is an OTA and the LM13700 is just 2 OTa's with 2 buffers...

Maybe you should have a look at the Ms20 VCF thread in this Forum... originally designed by Rene Schmitz with 2x3080's here's a layout using just one LM13700...

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-43085.html
and the original Rene Schmitz design
http://www.schmitzbits.de/ms20.html
comparing the schematics you see how to Substitute a 3080 with a 13700

the 13700 costs 1,20 or so and is less than a third in Price as the 3080... maybe you should use sockets for ic's as from 10 13700's i had on 2 of them one of both OTA's didn't work... so replacement would be much easier. ..

the 741 and 4558 as far as i remember are also obtainable at reichelt...

http://www.reichelt.de/-A-741-DIP/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=23435&artnr=%C2%B5A+741+DIP&SEARCH=741

http://www.reichelt.de/-PC-4558-C/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=23637&artnr=%C2%B5PC+4558+C&SEARCH=4558

for the 4558 there are different types available i guess the MC4558 (icq4558 in their shop) should work...

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Ruebezahl



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately i build this circuits based on the pcb-Layout posted her, so i etched a circuit board. this makes it impossible to just use the 13700 for the CA3800 since it has more pins. the only thing i could imagine, would be, to make bridges from the desginated pin-holes to a second board where i have the chip soldered to. if i make the bridges very short and take a very small piece of board, just big enough for the chip, it should be not to complicated and even look neat Smile just have to make sure the solder-points of the second board dont touch the first board anywhere.
I would like to NOT order at reichelt, because they charge 6€ on shipping, and actually all other chips (including the 741 and 4558) i could get at segor in their shop here in berlin, so i would save the shipping.

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donpachi



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

CA3080 is available at http://www.uk-electronic.de/ for E2,20. Shipping costs are very reasonable starting from E2,00. Not meaning to advertise, I am just a happy recurrent customer Very Happy
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Ruebezahl



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So i am building these both modules now. The Synbal one is almost done Smile

But i am wondering how i will trigger them later. Since they are originally designed for use with a drumpad, they are normally triggered by a piezo. But i want to use them in a modular setup, together with a Hip Bass Drum. So i want to use the same trigger Signal for all the drum modules.
In the descriptions for the syntom it says very vaguely that triggering by a "rythm machine" is also possible. but no word about how high should the Voltage be.
In the description of the synbal, they say a trigger signal can be "up to 5V", or even more if you adjust R2.
The Hip Bass Drum, i was building expects something between 5V and 10V. So i guess i go for 5V. Any thoughts on that?

Lets say i go for the 5V-Trigger-Signal. I would probably do this with a Schmitt Trigger like the 40106. But if i power it with the same +-15V Supply, i use for the drum modules, the pulse it puts out, will be also between -15V and +15V, or not? So i could use a tip on how to generate those 5V-Pulses.

And after i achieved this, i still need to turn the pulse into shorter Trigger, right? For this, someone recommended me this module http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html
I will probably build everything in one module, with just the trigger out. i dont see the use of gate signals in drum machines, or would there be?

Well lots of Questions, wich are also for a big part just very loosely related to the Synbal and Syntom. But i would be very happy if someone could help me.

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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ruebezahl wrote:

Lets say i go for the 5V-Trigger-Signal. I would probably do this with a Schmitt Trigger like the 40106. But if i power it with the same +-15V Supply, i use for the drum modules, the pulse it puts out, will be also between -15V and +15V, or not? So i could use a tip on how to generate those 5V-Pulses.

The maximum supply voltage for CMOS is usually 18V max, so you have to power it from GND/+15V
(or -15V/GND but that would result in negative output voltages)
5V on the output can be achieved with 2 resistors as a simple voltage divider, a resistor + zenerdiode,
or you could even use a voltage regulator (78L05).
But the Synbal already has an attentuator on the trigger input so it's not needed for that.

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Ruebezahl



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for your help!

One little question regarding the Gate to Trigger Converter:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Why there are TWO capacitors in parallel to each other? On the sketch its not really obvious they are parallel. I dont understand why there must be a capacitor between the poles in the first place, but i saw it on a lot of circuits before. but what sense does it to have those two in parallel. i am talking about the 10uF Elko and the 100nF one.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The electrolytic one keeps the supply voltage rails clean for low frequencies, and the 100 nF one does the same for high frequencies, as the electrolytic one isnt so good there.
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prgdeltablues



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also, the electrolytic 10uF is usually placed where the power enters the board, and the 100n is placed as close to the pins on the IC as possible. Common practice is to have 100n capacitors for every chip on a board.

Peter
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Ruebezahl



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for your answers, i learn something every day i am here Smile I will write more about this circuit later... i am not sure if its working yet...

But so far something about the SyntomII. If anyone want to build this PCB after the Layout THeff posted here in this thread before:

1. Note that there are some holes were it might not be obvious later, because they are a tiny white spot, and like in my case, it might be no spot at all later, after etching. So in my case i missed some holes and had to drill them later, where i already populated it a bit. No big deal, but it might be good to know it in advance, so maybe you can change the layout a bit and make the holes a few pixels bigger. I am talking about the holes in the middle of the big black areas.

2. I dont know why but there will be 6 holes wich are not mentioned in the Component Overlay in the Scanned Article from F&MM '83. Maybe the scans are old or what do i know. But i took a picture of this 6 Holes (3 Connections). they are marked with red...I compared to the original schematics and found out that all of them are just simple links. But omitting them, would mean the schematic would not work, so i dont know why they are not on there. Any comments on that from the people who already built them?


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