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What's your take on this?
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: What's your take on this?
Subject description: There are always more inputs than outputs?
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I'm wondering how true this statement is for the "average" fully patchable analogue synth.
If it is true, then what would you say is the average ratio of inputs to outputs?
I'm imagining a synth which has, for example, 2*VCO, 2*VCF, 2*EG, 2*VCA, 2*LFO, 1*RM, 1*S&H, 1*Noise source.
The reason I'm wondering is that I've worked out a way of easily building a robust and reliable connection matrix, to any size, at a very attractive price, often with parts that many already have in their parts drawers.
The only real issue I can see is that it uses three times the space in one axis compared to the other, so I'd like to get a general idea of whether it should have inputs on the horizontal rows, or on the vertical columns.

I could do a photo set of construction if anyone is interested.

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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Extra output connections tend to be be unused and it may be more practical to provide jack multiples for the times when one wants to route a single signal to multiple locations.

However, to mix signals is so ubiquitous that multiple inputs generally don't go to waste.

In general, I find multiple outputs useful on control circuits (i.e., sequencers, keyboards, envelope generators, clocks, etc).

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ashleym



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It depends of if the modules are sound sources or modulation sources.
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well,
Being a connection matrix, the ability to send one output to many inputs is built in, ie just add more pins.
What I really mean is, take away the ordinary idea of "mulitples", and think about the number of inputs & outputs at the PCB. So maybe it would be better to say the number of input and output types. This isn't the whole story, however, as some modules have functionally similar inputs on the PCB. The number of CV ins on a VCO is a good example. So I would be counting those separately. But the square wave out, is counted as one output, regardless of whether it is sent through a "multiple" and on to three VCFs.
Does that make sense?

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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ashleym wrote:
It depends of if the modules are sound sources or modulation sources.


Yes.
So for any particular set of modules, add them all up to get an overall average.

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Boogdish



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To me, inputs on horizontal rows, outputs on vertical columns seems more intuitive.

If you're looking to even up the square on your matrix, you should build a clock divider/multiplier into your system, 1 input, 16 outputs. You could also do a fixed bandpass bank, 1 input, 8 outputs. How about a sixteen step sequencer with individual outs for each step and some manually controlled quadrature LFOs?

As to WHY there are more inputs than outputs, remember that each module has it's own set of controls for it's output (knobs, switches, etc), and then it's inputs can be thought of as more controls on it's output. More inputs than outputs means that a user has more opportunities to control the outputs of a module. More outputs means that this module would be controlling more modules, and thus a single limited range of controls is influencing a lot of other modules.

Somewhere along the line either designers decided or users demanded that they have more control over individual modules. Then these modules were successful, and they were studied, modified and copied.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

if i undertand you correct, you are interested just in the ratio between input and output.

most modules have just one output, correct? (1st type of modules with multiple outputs that come to my mind are multimode filters and sequencers).
the number of inputs depends on the number of voltage controlled features, correct? (we are not interested on multiple input for the same function, or are we?).

so it will be at least 2 : 1 (audio in + CV in / audio out).

for more information you will have to collect some statistics!? why not picking random samples in one of the modular databases?

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some counts on a G2 patch that happened to be in the editor :

Code:
out vs in   out -> in
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     1     1  ->  2
 1     1     1  ->  1
 1     3     1  ->  3
 1     1     1  ->  1
 1     4     1  ->  3
 1     1     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  2
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     1     1  ->  2
 1     3     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 3     3     1  ->  2
 1     2     1  ->  1
 2     2     1  ->  1
 2     2     1  ->  1
 1     0     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 3     1     1  ->  1
 1     1     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 3     3     1  ->  1
 1     4     1  ->  3
 3     3     1  ->  2
 2     1     1  ->  2
 2     4     1  ->  2
 2     4     1  ->  1
 2     4     1  ->  2
 2     4     1  ->  1
 2     4     1  ->  1
 2     3     1  ->  1
 2     0     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     1     1  ->  1
 1     1     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     2     1  ->  1
 1     3     1  ->  1
 1     1     1  ->  1
--+   --+    1  ->  1
61    92     1  ->  1
             1  ->  1
             1  ->  1
             1  ->  1
             1  ->  5
             1  ->  1
             1  ->  1
             1  ->  1
             1  ->  2
             1  ->  2
             1  ->  1
            --+    --+
            55     75


43 modules
55 outputs used
61 outputs total
75 inputs used
92 inputs total

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fonik



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

salut
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks heaps for all the replies! Very Happy
It pretty well confirms what my gut feeling was, but it's reassuring to get your ideas on the subject. So it's roughly In:Out ~ 3:2, so if the inputs were on the rows, and the outputs on the colums, and the colums take up 3* the row space, that makes 3:6 which is twice as wide as it is high. (roughly)
I realise that the lack of jacks needed on the panel would easily justify the space used by the matrix, no matter how many connections.
I know it might seem like a terrible waste, but I'm actually thinking of re-building my ASM2, (with little additions, like an SNVoice, and chaos generator) in a completely new unit, incorporating a major connection matrix to end up with something akin to a VCS on steroids.
Pre-patched has just too many limitations, and completely patched out with 6.5mm plugs is just to confusing for me. Semi-patched out, as it is now, has some of the advantages of each, but all the disadvantages of both. Rolling Eyes
Maybe I just think too much about things that don't really matter! Laughing
Maybe I'm just trying to distract myself from issues in the real world.
Either way, I thought you might all like to know that even a small, simple and very reliable matrix can be easily built, and I'll show you how if anyone's in need of one. Cool

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elmegil



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have hand built modules... MIDI->CV, dual ADSR, quantizer, glide,El Cerrito, X4046, VCA/VCF, dual VCA, Double Well Chaos, LFO Controller, Time Machine.... I'm omitting a buffered mult module, and the duplicate outputs on the quantizer

If I omit the time machine it comes out to 31 ins and 35 outs.

If I add the time machine, it comes to 39 ins and 36 outs.

I'm also counting MIDI in as an input.

Edit: Definitely interested in the matrix Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is it something like Rob Hordijk's active matrix (I still need to build something like that) or do you take a different approach ?
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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm, well looking at numbers of ins and outs in the stuff I've built, and in the backlog, then *roughly* .....

VCO = slightly more ins than outs
VCF = more ins than outs
VCA = more ins than outs
RM = more ins than outs
MIXER = more ins than outs
ADSR = same-ish, or more ins than outs if a CV ADSR
S+H = same, or more ins than outs
CV Processor = about the same-ish

LFO = more outs than ins
MIDI to CV/gate = many more outs than ins

I like VC inputs on modules - including Resonance, and the LFOs and ADSRs, which skews it towards inputs. Ratio around 3 to 2 I guess...

cheers,
Dave

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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I don't know if it will help you, but I've looked at all of the inputs and outputs on my (semi-)modular flightcase synth (see picture), which I built based mainly on on MFOS circuits, but with a few of my own thrown in. I've used matrices of 3.5mm jack sockets at the back for patching, but there are also a lot of 3.5mm sockets on the main panel for extra patching ability (some of these could have been banana socket really). Anyway, here it goes:

Rear Patchboard

CVs

9 CV outputs from LFO1, LFO2, AR EG, AR EG (Inv.), ADSR EG, ADSR EG (Inv.), S&H, Ext.CV1 & Ext.CV2
10 CV inputs to VCO1 (Pitch), VCO1 (PW), VCO2 (Pitch), VCO2 (PW), VCO3 (Pitch), VCF1 (Cut-Off Freq.), VCF1 (Q), VCF2

(Cut-Off Freq.), VCA1 (Gain & VCA2 (Gain)

Gates/Triggers

7 Gate/Trigger outputs from Keyboard, LFO1, LFO2, Random (Noise), Ext. Audio I/P, Ext. Gate/Trigger 1 & Ext. Gate/Trigger 2
3 inputs to AR EG Gate/Trigger, ADSR EG Gate & ADSR Trigger

External Inputs

2 x CV, 2 x Gate & 2 x Trigger

Main Panel

VCO1 Ramp & Pulse O/Ps
VCO2 Ramp & Pulse O/Ps
VCO3 Ramp O/P
VCF1 Ext. Audio I/P, LP O/P, BP O/P & HP O/P
VCF2 Ext. Audio I/P & LP O/P
VCA1 Ext. Audio I/P & Audio O/P
VCA2 Ext. Audio I/P & Audio O/P
Mixer 1 Audio O/P
Mixer 2 Audio O/P
Mixer 3 Left & Right Audio O/Ps
LFO1 Triangle O/P, Square O/P & 'Sine' O/P
LFO2 Ramp O/P & Pulse O/P
Noise White Noise O/P & LP Noise O/P
S&H Ext. Trigger I/P

Side Panel

Headphones O/P, Line O/P, Ext. Audio I/P, Keyboard I/P & Power I/P

That's it (I think).

Gary


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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gary - that's a really beautiful piece of kit..... thumb up

cheers,
Dave

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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Dave Very Happy

I built this before I joined the forum (although I had been reading it for some time). Although I have mentioned the synth in previous posts, this is the first time that I've posted a picture of it.

Gary
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So that's why I haven't seen it before. yeah looks great,. love that patchmatrix Very Happy
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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:
So that's why I haven't seen it before. yeah looks great,. love that patchmatrix Very Happy


Thanks PHOBoS Very Happy This synth wasn't just in my imagination Laughing I was originally going to do the patchmatrix with 2.5mm sockets, but they were actually more expensive (and I had loads of room anyway).

Gary
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, Gary, gotta say, that build is the ducks nuts!! Cool Laughing
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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
Yeah, Gary, gotta say, that build is the ducks nuts!! Cool Laughing


Thanks for that Unc Very Happy I still have a little bit of tweaking to do on it. When I built the VCOs, I had no tempcos and just used 2K metal film resistors. I've now ordered some, so when I get them I'll put them in and re-tune the oscillators. They're not bad now, but with no temperature compensation, you can't rely on the tuning too much.

BTW did you ever come to a conclusion re the input to output ratio?

Gary
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah,
I think I'll settle with the In:Out / 3:2 average as a rough guide.
I haven't done anything much lately due to some upheaval in other areas of life. I'll get back on the case ASAP.

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