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zero-input mixer as a performance instrument
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: zero-input mixer as a performance instrument
Subject description: kudos to one of Joo Won Park's students
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Over here Mosc responded to my post on using a zero-input mixer as an instrument:
mosc wrote:
Acoustic Interloper wrote:
One of Joo Won Park's students was playing the zero-input mixer as an instrument in an ensemble performance last month, all done with cabled feedback loops, adjusting filters, etc. I have an old Yamaha second mixer with a nice fx unit that I am planning to try along those lines soon.

That would be a cool electro-music festival ensemble: nothing but 0-input mixers Smile


Maybe a good new topic, Dale. I myself haven't heard of this before. It sounds interesting.

New topic started, thanks for the suggestion flower I'll give Joo Won a heads up about this thread, and see if I can find his student's name. The student and I had some brief discussion after their ensemble performance at Community College of Philadelphia in December. There was no circuit bending involved -- although the student is a circuit bender -- it was strictly done using cables and controls on the mixer.

It's probably be later this month that I get to try it out. Maybe somebody else wants to get the ball rolling. I am in the middle of coding a successor to Scrabble-to-MIDI that projects a hexagon-tiled game onto a planetarium dome, with a few other substantial deliverables occupying my so-called "winter break." But, I do intend to try this mixer thingy out with my son Jeremy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Zero-input mixer student's name Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all,

My student who used zero-input (or no-input) mixer during the last CCP Electronic Ensemble Concert is Aleister Williams. He's brilliant. I'll ask him to join the forum and see this message.

You can hear the sounds of no-input mixer in the following link. The pulsing and edge noises in the first few minutes are from the mixer.

www.joowonpark.net/CCPEE1-Dec5-2011.mp3
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also see: http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=mixer+feedback&t=50330
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Zero-input mixer student's name Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

joowon wrote:
Hi all


welcome

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1:11



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

YESYESYES!!!!
More no input mixer stuff...i love it!!
We've been using it a lot lately, and just took part in an all no-input mixer compilation release.
You can also reroute software configs for interesting results
(though Acid Trash only uses hardware feedback loops).

New section for forum?
cuz it's not really circuit bending and is really a technique all in itself?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: zero-input mixer as a performance instrument
Subject description: kudos to one of Joo Won Park's students
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Acoustic Interloper wrote:

That would be a cool electro-music festival ensemble: nothing but 0-input mixers Smile


I'm game. Smile

adam / onewayness

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: sample #1
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OK, I'm in. It's gonna take some thought and practice, but there's time.

Attached are 20 minutes of my second attempt on my Yamaha MG124cx. Mostly a walk around the space, but better than my first effort last night.

The first 30 seconds are me trying to figure out what I did right before I shut the machine off after a quick test, then about 3 minutes of spark plug mode before I got warmed up. This thing has an extra stereo bus in addition to the main one. I had 3 feedback cables -- one for each half of that stereo bus, and 1 for the aux send, all feeding back into mono inputs. See if you can spot my aborted attempt at playing The Star Spangled Banner Shocked

Even without the built-in digital FX rotary (which I did use heavily in places), it was possible to get some nice heterodyning and other things going on with the feedback and EQ knobs. Last night at one point I had sort of a ping-pong thingy going via FX and panning; couldn't get that tonight.

Make sure all your faders are down when powering up and later down, and never bypass the faders!

Doing an ensemble will require us to figure out what we can do with these things, learn how to control it, and then plan somewhat. Learn mode right now, along with a million other things.

I'd be interesting in hearing some other samples. Cool


MG124cx120113_00.mp3
 Description:
Yamaha MG124cx, Dale Parson, January 13, 2012

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: OIART
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By the way, my son Jeremy said that they had a lab session introducing this technique at OIART when he went there in 2007-2008, so I am not the first person in my family to play this instrument.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ha!! Cool stuff AI Cool
Good advice on making sure the faders are all the down on power up.

It definitely takes practice to keep it all under control, there's an art to it for sure, but dang...did pretty good for a second night!! The mixer sounds great actually.

The ping pong thing.....i'm guessing you had 2 separate channels panned L/R and would adjust the faders independently to bring on the fb?


Idea One thing you might want to try is putting a compressor in the line.
That way (depending on the mixer) even knob/dial/fader turns make sound (scratchiness/clicks). Opens a whole another can of worms.... Wink

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1:11 wrote:
Ha!! Cool stuff AI Cool

Thanks!
Quote:
The ping pong thing.....i'm guessing you had 2 separate channels panned L/R and would adjust the faders independently to bring on the fb?

Yes, definitely 2 channels hard-panned. One of the FX was engaged, not sure which, but I have some candidates.
Quote:
One thing you might want to try is putting a compressor in the line.
That way (depending on the mixer) even knob/dial/fader turns make sound (scratchiness/clicks). Opens a whole another can of worms.... Wink


Yep, had compressors in and out of play on each channel, input pads, too. Sometimes the effect of changing a slider or knob is the opposite of what you'd expect, which probably comes down to regenerative versus degenerative feedback related to that control.

My next move is going to be figuring out more systematic ways to use additional feedback paths + channel crossover, maybe get independent signals and mix, heterodyne, etc.

I can imagine in an ensemble it might be worth sending a send to the next player's return, etc., and have 1 feedback loop across all machines. You'd want to be able to use or bypass that signal in your own mix, without killing it, and without wasting too much of your own mixer's capabilities that you might want to use in another way.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: Arvo Part
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Here is a nice little Arvo Part piece played on a zero-input mixer.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject:
Subject description: 0-input Mixer Dry Run for EM2012
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Here is today's dry run of the solo piece I have planned for the Acoustic Interloper set on Sunday at EM2012. Unlike the 0-input mixer collaboration on Friday evening, for this one I use the laptop within the the one mixer feedback path to process the feedback. My plan for Friday evening is not to use laptop processing at all. The mixer is a Yamaha MG124cx, which does have a nice, small set of built-in FX.


VoicesPractice18Aug2012.mp3
 Description:
Dry run of "These Voices", 18 August 2012, words by Sierra & Dale Parson. (Sierra reorganized my description of the March 20 planetarium performance at Kutztown University.)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

... wait, what? How does this even work!?
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
... wait, what? How does this even work!?

You run signals from mixer outputs back to inputs and play the feedback.

In a less pure approach you throw some FX boxes or pedals into the feedback loop. That is what we'll be doing in the 0-input collab on Friday night at electro-music 2012, I believe.

In an even less pure approach the feedback FX can include software on a laptop.

This recording also injects a couple of audio samples into the feedback loop. The samples nevertheless get processed in the mixer's feedback.

It's all about those feedback paths. Cool

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: EM2012 0-input mixer
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The Zero-Input Mixer Collaboration from electro-music 2012, Friday afternoon, is posted over here, including a link to Steve Mokris' visual accompaniment and video of the performance. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Also see: http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=mixer+feedback&t=50330

And here Smile
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-292335.html

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: NYE 2012-2013
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My New Year's Eve 2012-2013 Zero-Input Mixer performance has somewhat of an essay related to this thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Dale ! Good stuff. Here is a link to some interesting results using a Behringer 1204FX mixer.

http://scacinto.wordpress.com/2010/10/30/1204fx-improvisation-2-behringer/

The opening warning is good advice as things, especially at the beginning of any ones experimentation, can get out of control quickly in terms of loudness. Not to mention you can end up with crispy speakers ! haha. A hard limiter is probably a good idea to use.

Personally, I think an inexpensive mixer like the compact 1204FX that has the potential to be a neat drone machine with all sorts of sonic possibilities is a pretty cool idea. Cool

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Bill.

Thanks for the link! Muied Lumens just posted an excellent article on zero-input mixing in the electro-music wiki Exclamation

I find that my Yamaha had a very reedy native tone similar to a clarinet (at least in my head), while my Mackie has a drier, low-amplitude raspy native tone. Each oscillates and saturates in its own way, and I tried to preserve some flavor of each even when using software in the feedback loops in the NYE 2012-2013 webcast.

A team of my students is currently designing and extending a very basic waveform visualizer that I drafted in the Processing language. I have been using my NYE recording as a test driver. Attached are 3 screen shots, and I'll attach 3 more in a follow-up post below. The yellow and blue are time domain plots of the recording, and the green and cyan are Lissajous. Either I had no stereo difference or the input software is screwing me on left-right separation, so I phase shifted the right channel by 10 samples to get the Lissajous patterns.

The magenta trace is just time domain plotted around a circle 3/4ths of the way out from the center. We are designing this for use in the planetarium. Finally, the red bars in the corners are mirror images of the frequency domain plot.

I'll talk a bit more about the planetarium in the post below. In terms of zero-input mixer, I found watching these waveforms very useful in helping get into playing the instrument. For NYE I didn't have time to look at them, but I find them mesmerizing now. These still shots don't do justice to the transitions, any more than a 1-second recording would to music. Another of my student teams is planning two 3-minute promotional videos for the planetarium-as-instrument. One will use a game-for-play-in-planetarium that we are developing, and the other will use the final version of this visualization software driven by zero-input mixer.


wavea.jpg
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a simple waveform
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more interesting
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the piece devlopes
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wavec.jpg



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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For the planetarium we can add additional plots, such as change in RMS amplitude over time, or change in frequency distribution over time, or make the lines thicker or thinner as a function of amplitude (smear the paint), or modulate the Lissajous cross-channel phase shift or other parameters. If I can get > 2 input channels to work (the library I am using is broken with > 2 channels at the moment), we might give each musician a Lissajous of her / his own, have their Lissajous patterns glide around the dome, fuse into an averaged signal when they meet (i.e., mate), separate and go on their way. We could also conceivably open up wormholes inside a Lissajous or other circular pattern, and spin a nested universe.

This is targeted for the planetarium, but I plan to bring it to electro-music 2013 and use it in our zero-input mixer set. I'll be able to consolidate my work with my students' over the summer.

The final screen shot below is from when my NYE piece transitioned into the "oncoming Hurricane sandy" section, with the synthesized waves, etc. For the frequency domain plot I scale the highest bin to fill 1/3 of the screen from the bottom (or top), regardless of the actual amplitude. Thus, although this section of the piece is fairly quiet, it has a large frequency distribution, hence all the red.

I'm looking forward to hearing your spring equinox set, by the way. Nice photos you posted the other day Cool


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next step in the sequence
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square, man
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onset of Hurricane sandy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
This is targeted for the planetarium, but I plan to bring it to electro-music 2013 and use it in our zero-input mixer set.


This is great stuff Dale. Love the visual in response to the wide band noise signal and would like to see that in action Cool

I do hope the "processing" library gets sorted out such that we could use >2 channels at EM 2013. That would be awesome!

I have three portable analog mixers that I will be experimenting with over the coming weeks and may use my spot during the Spring Equinox radio concert as my first official zero input mixer performance. As you mentioned, each mixer may have it's own tonal character so I want to try a few. I shall post on the concert thread whatever I end up doing.

Bill
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, Bill, glad you like the visuals. This is one of my pet projects. I will get multi-channel input working at some point. It'll probably require me to dig deep into some code pulled down off the network. I'll have some time this summer Very Happy

I am looking forward to hearing your equinox piece and reading your writeup. The most interesting feedback loop in all of this is among the musicians, both during planning (as we are doing now) and during performance. I am looking forward to it Cool

Take care!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lovely images Dale!

And thanks for reading the article too. Smile

I knew there was some stuff on the forum and I have now linked a few things at the end of the article. It is meant as a starter thing for people who do not know what it is and things to explore but I am by no means a purist and have included all sorts of things that are not strictly no-input-mixing techniques.

I have sort of inspired myself into taking out old gear and making it squeal too. Even after having done my research it has of become a fixed part of my setup now. Very Happy

I am also toying with the idea of making a bi-phase matrix mixer with built in delays as basis for further experiments. that will take some time...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Muied Lumens wrote:
Lovely images Dale!

And thanks for reading the article too. Smile

Thanks, Rob Smile Reading the article was my pleasure.

I like your article on images-to-music, too. One of my ultimate goals for visualization is to have mappings both ways, from auditory waves to visual waves, and from visual waves to auditory waves, so you can work in one medium for a while, switch to the other, and switch back.

I will probably do some processing in a mixer feedback loop of my 1-banjo-note piece for spring equinox.
Quote:
I am also toying with the idea of making a bi-phase matrix mixer with built in delays as basis for further experiments. that will take some time...

I was an electronics technician from about 1978-1988. I may toy with some ideas like this one as well. There are times when I'd prefer to muck around with hardware again.

Have fun Razz

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very interesting article. A couple of thoughts to the topic :
* a simple El Cheapo © protection limiter could be a couple of LEDs (one reverted) to ground at the output of each channel, waddaya think ? Funky benefit : they may light up ! Punk benefit : more distortion ! At least you'd be warned that you should put the volume down…
* those no-input devices behave quite differently when feedback is delayed (na really ?). It may not matter for drones but some (rather violent) blips & squeaks need immediate feedback, as far as I understood the process.
* I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN WITH THAT "DON'T USE HEADPHONES" THING !

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