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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
4046 Pitch Tracker - Turn clicks into lasers
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Draal



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If I run my clocks too fast the pitch tracking isn't as obvious. It thrives in that lower to mid range on the input signal. I will try to take a snap shot of my breadboard for closer comparison. If we are identical in that regards, I'm wondering if the clock source is the culprit? Hell, now I'm grasping at straws.

The one thing I didn't notice in your video was adjustments to the two clocks going into your 4011. Varying their speed will allow you to find that sweet spot (1 slower than the other).

We"ll get to the bottom of this Exclamation

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RingMad



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks a lot Draal... I'll re-build the thing with your values and check everything again when I get off work. I'm pretty sure I have power to the board, because the LED on it lights, but I'll measure with the multimeter.

I was also wondering about load and stuff... in this case, and in fact, in a lot of my experimentation, the output goes to a splitter, which goes into a mixer (Behringer thing, not home-made) as well as my oscilloscope. I'll try it through my Lunetta's mixer too...

James.
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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm. Never thought to ask about the output. Worth checking out. I updated my layout to take out the 4049; just not needed for most users here and simplifies the concept. Beginning of thread has updated image.
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RingMad



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, I got lasers! BUT: I think there might be a problem related to the chip brand or model.

I rebuilt the circuit from scratch yet again, using different everything, and 100nF caps and the 47K and it worked! Then I swapped the chip for another one by one, without changing any settings, and the only one that worked was the Motorola MC14046BCP. I even tried the Solid State Scientific SCL4046BE that has been happily working as a VCO on my still-breadboarded-Lunetta for the last year & a half... it didn't do the lasers. It's as if the comparator part doesn't work, but the VCO part does?

Anyway, if others who make this report working/non-working chips, maybe we have our mystery completely solved... this kind of thing did happen with Inventor's Karplus-Strong Percussion circuit where certain makes of 4011 did not work.

Thanks again Draal for your time and effort helping me out. I will probably delete my video now that I've got the circuit working. Maybe you could write which brand chip you are using, in case. Also, maybe this thread's title should be changed since the 4049 is gone.

James.
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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: The 4046 Pitch tracker - Turn clicks into Lasers and Warbles Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cheers Glad to hear the news! I was just thinking the same thing regarding the title change; the 4046 is the star of this show. I'll double check my brands of 4046 too.

update: I can't seem to edit the title scratch Help moderators!

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Better now?
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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Better now?



Much better Cool !

Tanks!

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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just a quick FYI

I got my last order of Texas Instruments cd4046BE chips from Mouser, so we know these work as well.

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Draal



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: More thoughts on the 4046 pitch tracker Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been working on a few machines using the pitch tracker in some capacity for a while and I will share what little I do know Smile .

1. As RingMad had pointed out, it may be a good idea to experiment with different brands of the 4046 to see if there are any differences in final output.

I have built a few of these trackers and none sound the same as the one I used in starting this thread. Oh, there's cool sounds but not as dramatic. Hence, I agree that the comparator portion of this chip may vary based on maker.

On my big lunetta,which has the original tracker used in the samples:

2. I find that it prefers NAND and AND gates when I connect 2 oscillators. Richer, stepped note clarity, for lack of a perfect description.

3. I want to build another one with the 4049 preamp to see what impact that has on the tracking. The 2 trackers I've built recently, do not have this compared to the first one I made. Maybe a useless exercise, but the goal is to be able to replicate the 'laser show' as close as possible.

More soon...ramble off Smile

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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

After further review...

The preamp does tweak the sound, providing some distortion to the sound. A welcome concept from time to time. Of course it is not essential if all you plan on doing is hooking up squarewaves from other cmos.

As for the dramatic effects: the answer lies in the Loop filter (the resistor followed by a cap to ground) from pin 9 of the 4046. I was fixated with a value range of 0.22uF up to 1 uF and 47k to 100k for the resistor. But once I started to play with the values, I got the vibe I was after.

My current project (which I'll show once I'm done with the enclosure) has a pitch tracker as the last stage before the output. I settled on a 10k resistor and a switch to choose between a .68uF cap for the "fast" mode and a 10uF cap for the "slow" mode.

I can get plenty of retro video game sounds from this setup at the fast setting and very warbly vinyl record scratching sounds at the slow setting.

That relationship between the cap and resistor is vital to getting the sound YOU want from the tracker. You could obviously put a pot in series with the resister to tweak that value and use a rotary switch to select between a greater number of caps for a real versatile tracker.

It's morning and I tend to ramble; hope my notes are of use to someone Laughing !

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jcintheus



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Draal wrote:


It's morning and I tend to ramble; hope my notes are of use to someone Laughing !


Of very much use! I don't think I've experimented much with those values.
Thanks!

You could get all kinds of funky with some multiplexed caps,
and a voltage controlled resistor.
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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am getting the same monotonous dull cracks as RingMad - at least not the nice sweepy lazer sounds as you, Draal. I am using a CD4046. I blame the 40106 I am using as input because it's kinda jumpy, not very steady in keeping the tone, it's like there's dual tones in some ranges. Tomorrow I will test with a 555 for input.

I really really dig the sounds you get from it Draal - and I am not soldering this bitch before I get the same results Laughing

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Draal



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dogenigt wrote:
I am getting the same monotonous dull cracks as RingMad - at least not the nice sweepy lazer sounds as you, Draal. I am using a CD4046. I blame the 40106 I am using as input because it's kinda jumpy, not very steady in keeping the tone, it's like there's dual tones in some ranges. Tomorrow I will test with a 555 for input.

I really really dig the sounds you get from it Draal - and I am not soldering this bitch before I get the same results Laughing


Sorry to hear that you're having some issus with this. I'll run through some patches today to see what variances there are in laser sounds. There will be differences in the final output in some circumstances: more jumping around with a 4011 as opposed to a 4001 for instance.

I think the 4046 wants a very specific resistor/cap selection at pin 9. If I have another 4046, I'll breadboard the circuit again and try to record the differences in resistors/caps; if my toddler lets me Laughing

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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Draal wrote:


Sorry to hear that you're having some issus with this. I'll run through some patches today to see what variances there are in laser sounds. There will be differences in the final output in some circumstances: more jumping around with a 4011 as opposed to a 4001 for instance.

I think the 4046 wants a very specific resistor/cap selection at pin 9. If I have another 4046, I'll breadboard the circuit again and try to record the differences in resistors/caps; if my toddler lets me Laughing


Okay, I changed the CLK source and I now I have isolated the problem: it seems like everything that has to do with chaning the pitch range of the 4046 is OK, it's only that I am not getting these long pitch drops or glissandi lazers. very odd. there's definately pitch dropping going on but the time it takes to drop is very short. sounds like very high pitched bassdrums or something like that.

One would expect the feedback circuit resistor to be the problem, as it would determined the time it takes for the circuit to tune in/lock on to the input source pitch.

I am using a CD4046BE with 9V battery source.


EDIT: In fact, it sounds almost identical to Ring Mad's examples on page 1 - very fast sweeps.

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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

W... T... F! Shocked

I was trying every combination possible in the search for lasers and when i ripped up the GND to pin 8 I got the freaking lazers?!?!
Sounds exactly as it should now. Any explanation to this?

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Draal



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That IS strange. All the 4046's i've got right now are Texas Instruments cd4046BE's and the most tweaking I've done was at pin 9; getting the right values in there. I tend to run low on parts so I play around with the values until I get the results I want.

I took a closer look at the 4046 that's built in my big lunetta (where I tend to shoot videos from), and that has a 100k resistor connected to 2 caps on a switch. The caps are a 22n box cap for the faster tracking and the slower tracking cap is a 1uF.

That said, I had to fiddle with what I had in my junk bin for my last build and I settled for a .68uF film cap and a 10uF for super duper slow, dive bombing weapon of doom tracking speed. I think the best laser and video game-y sounds come with the 100k and 1uF combo but I like the smaller cap in there for a lil' variety.

Back to the problem: Still a lot to learn from this chip as far as getting predictable results. I need to get a bag of these chips and see if there is a process of weeding out the bad from the good (regarding the 4046 ic) in this circuit.

I'm using a similar process in my fuzz pedal building currently. Some transistors get the job done and some don't. Hopefully more people will experiment with this tracker and post their results. What's baffling is that I have a few buddies from other forums that have built this module as I described without any problems - go figure Laughing !

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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's a brilliant little chip. Will integrate it into my larger lunetta modular.
Ever tried throwing yourself into building something like an X-4046?

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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dogenigt wrote:
It's a brilliant little chip. Will integrate it into my larger lunetta modular.
Ever tried throwing yourself into building something like an X-4046?


Only time and a dozen unfinished projects keep me from undertaking that project Laughing !

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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

White Noise Gen + 4069 distortion + 4046 Cool

https://soundcloud.com/dogenigt/liquidcircuit001

couldn't work out how to embed the player Evil or Very Mad

update: right link now. can anyone plz tell me how to embed soundcloud?

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RingMad



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dogenigt wrote:
White Noise Gen + 4069 distortion + 4046 Cool

update: right link now. can anyone plz tell me how to embed soundcloud?


Some nice liquid sounds in there. To embed, click the "Share" button found in the toolbar just above the waveform. Then copy what's in the "Embed code" field, paste it here. That should do it.

James.
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transponderfish



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having it on breadboard and having almost finished experimenting to find what sounds good to me I am close to soldering it to stripboard and want to share what I found out.
I worked from Nic Collins' book and put the 4046 preamp in front of the 4049. I extended it with the the envelope-follower circuit (p. 194) because 4046 has enough inverters left. The blinking LEDs are a nice visual guide to what is happening, so I will probably add them to the front-panel, although I more thought about using them for a gate/VCA/VCO/VCF.
I fed it with a quad NAND oscillator with switchable capacitors, so the input ranges from clicks to audio-range.

- The preamp is absolutely necessary for me, if I use a direct signal, the results are rather unspectacular, if not boring. Using the pot I can find a sweet spot and alter the sound rather drastically.
- The sound became more interesting when I added two 1M pots to pins 11 and 12 to set the min/max frequency. The result is not exactly what I had expected, but I think I will keep them both in the final version.
- The capacitor between pins 6 and 7 makes a huge difference, I will put in a 0.01 uF plus a toggle to add a 0.1uF and a 1uF. I also tried larger values but quickly came to the conclusion that I do not need more switches or a rotary for rather unremarkable results.
- What struck me most was connecting the output accidentally to pin #2: these sounds amaze me most. No idea why this works, but who cares? I will put in a jack here Smile
- Pin 1 works as output, too. Not very spectacular, it translates clicks into even sharper clicks, but it seems useful in a Lunetta, so I will solder output #3 to this.
- The output of the 4049 preamp/distortion sounds really nice, so I will solder another jack to this point, so I will have 2 functions in a single jack: amplified out or a direct input to the 4046.

The chip is labeled 45HFXTK CD4046BE, the logo in front of it looks like Texas Instruments.

I have not yet experimented with R/C at pin 9. I hope this helps so far Smile
The sounds I get from this are very rich (I mean they contain very high frequencies), which cries for a 4040 behind it.
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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RingMad wrote:
Dogenigt wrote:
White Noise Gen + 4069 distortion + 4046 Cool

update: right link now. can anyone plz tell me how to embed soundcloud?


Some nice liquid sounds in there. To embed, click the "Share" button found in the toolbar just above the waveform. Then copy what's in the "Embed code" field, paste it here. That should do it.

James.


Had to switch back to the old soundcloud GUI to get the embed code. What people discard in updating their systems never ceases to amaze me. Shocked


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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was experimenting with the MAX freq input last night, oddly my chip only works if I give this a voltage above 0. But it threw me into experimenting with this parameter and some great sounds came out of this. Here's a chunk for you guys!


4046_HI_CONTROL_01.WAV
 Description:
4046 experimenting with MAX FREQ

Download
 Filename:  4046_HI_CONTROL_01.WAV
 Filesize:  43.68 MB
 Downloaded:  173 Time(s)


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Draal



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

transponderfish wrote:
Having it on breadboard and having almost finished experimenting to find what sounds good to me I am close to soldering it to stripboard and want to share what I found out.
I worked from Nic Collins' book and put the 4046 preamp in front of the 4049. I extended it with the the envelope-follower circuit (p. 194) because 4046 has enough inverters left. The blinking LEDs are a nice visual guide to what is happening, so I will probably add them to the front-panel, although I more thought about using them for a gate/VCA/VCO/VCF.
I fed it with a quad NAND oscillator with switchable capacitors, so the input ranges from clicks to audio-range.

- The preamp is absolutely necessary for me, if I use a direct signal, the results are rather unspectacular, if not boring. Using the pot I can find a sweet spot and alter the sound rather drastically.
- The sound became more interesting when I added two 1M pots to pins 11 and 12 to set the min/max frequency. The result is not exactly what I had expected, but I think I will keep them both in the final version.
- The capacitor between pins 6 and 7 makes a huge difference, I will put in a 0.01 uF plus a toggle to add a 0.1uF and a 1uF. I also tried larger values but quickly came to the conclusion that I do not need more switches or a rotary for rather unremarkable results.
- What struck me most was connecting the output accidentally to pin #2: these sounds amaze me most. No idea why this works, but who cares? I will put in a jack here Smile
- Pin 1 works as output, too. Not very spectacular, it translates clicks into even sharper clicks, but it seems useful in a Lunetta, so I will solder output #3 to this.
- The output of the 4049 preamp/distortion sounds really nice, so I will solder another jack to this point, so I will have 2 functions in a single jack: amplified out or a direct input to the 4046.

The chip is labeled 45HFXTK CD4046BE, the logo in front of it looks like Texas Instruments.

I have not yet experimented with R/C at pin 9. I hope this helps so far Smile
The sounds I get from this are very rich (I mean they contain very high frequencies), which cries for a 4040 behind it.


Yep, pots on pin 11 and 12 can be done for more fiddling. Works well when you are limited in cap choices to dial in you sound. In pedal building, you see the use of trim pots for this ( even though many "booteek" builders bring every variable to the outside of the pedal Rolling Eyes ).

Yep, caps on a switch for pins 6/7 can create more range; up to a point. I found going up too high, like 1uF, dulled the hell out of my sound. Just thumps and clicks. The 0.1 uf or 22n, sound like the sweet spot but experimentation is a beautiful thing Smile .

Yep, I tend to wire up pin 1 of the 4046 as an extra indicator "blinky" just cuz I can Laughing . Pin 2 is an Exclusive OR gate if memory serves me; I use this as a second output /clock source for my standalone cmos synth. These differing outputs alone are worth using the 4046.

The hugest impact is the filter loop on pin 9 of the 4046. This cries out for a pot instead of the fixed resistor (say 100k with a 10k limiting resistor) and a rotary switch for different caps. I'm a cheap bastard so I haven't done that yet; I tend to fiddle in my junk drawer for the "right' value of R and C until I'm happy. Maybe the next build will show this.

Glad you guys are finding some joy out of this set up. And just like building a fuzz pedal, the parts count can be low but the biasing and tweaking of those parts can get either blah results or fantastic. That's the pleasure in this stuff for me.

Finally, the 4049 as a preamp/distortion IS rad. The Tube Sound Fuzz and Red Llama overdrive use it.

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Dogenigt



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Draal wrote:


Finally, the 4049 as a preamp/distortion IS rad. The Tube Sound Fuzz and Red Llama overdrive use it.


I am integrating the 4046 module into a larger lunetta synth - so only square waves will come in, do you think the 4049/4069 will add something to the sound even though the signal is squared in the first place anyways?

of course I could just test this out myself, I might anyhow but I don't see how you could "square up" a signal which is already squared... Very Happy

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