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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Simmons SDS 3 - DIY?
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jmejia



Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Posts: 114
Location: portland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow! Thanks so much THeff!! Xnor and I also have foniks eagle files, and some proto boards already fabbed that we will mod. Our intention was to do a run for electro-music and muff members who would be interested in a single voice PCB. It would be based on foniks layout, but with these fixed applied, and likely a little smaller. But I don't wanna step on anyone's toes here.

Xpmtl are you planning on doing a group run? If so we'll just build for ourselves so as not to have 2 similar boards on offer from different forum members.
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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
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Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Go ahead, I don't have time atm to organise anything. I'm just curious to see if i can get this thing working basically.
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Luka



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very exciting guys

Thanks for you work theff

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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looking at the eagle schematic I don't think you want D1 on the input because it wants a negative going trigger. If you look at the original schematic it shows a positive spike on the cathode of D1. Since IC1a is an inverter a negative going trigger would be needed to create this. You Probably can bypass IC1a and apply a +10V trigger directly to the anode of D1 (original D1 designation), but I have not tried it.

I'm not sure what the signal output looks like from a Simmons drum sensor, but it must be a pretty high level. They have a large attenuator (68 ohms & two 150k resistors) on the input of IC1a. I fed a -5V trigger into resistor R6 (150k) without the 68 ohm and that worked fine. You will probably want to play with this values to match your trigger source.

-THeff
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just lifted pin1 on IC1a and applied a positive going 5V 1mS pulse to the anode of D1 (original D1 designation). This works just fine. So, the IC1a inverter is not really needed unless you have negative going triggers.

THeff
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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
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Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks a bunch Tim,

i'll add an input before D1 so peeps can choose what kind of trigger they want and etch tomorrow i think.

Is my wiring correct on the bleed thru addition? i'm not sure if i wired R56 (22K on the original schemo) correctly. That arrow without information is confusing me Smile


Thanks again for your hard work making this circuit alive.

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jmejia



Joined: Mar 12, 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is really great - thanks guys! So pumped to finally get this thing on track! We'll make the same changes to our prototypes and get this going! As soon as we have a corrected board printed and working we'll do a big community run!
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THeff



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi XPMTL,

The noise feedthrough mod looks correct they way you have it drawn and that's the way I have it connected.

I built the noise circuit just the way it is drawn using the LM301 and 2N5172 transistor and it doesn't sound very good to me. I tried the gimmick capacitor (twisted wires) and then replaced it with a 1-2 pF cap with the same results. A small change in capacitance here makes a big difference in the frequency roll-off.

The noise has a crackling clipping sound instead of smooth white noise. I'm sure this will vary depending on the transistor that you use but I think adopting some of the other noise circuits out there might be more predictable and sound better for snares or cymbals.

-THeff
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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
Posts: 158
Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Tim.

Made some progress today. Unfortunatly i'll have to go buy some components as i don't have 1458 and the trannies in house.

I tried with BC550 & BC560 and TL072 but that doesn't do it. So far only the LFO works.

Back to debugging and trip to the store planned before the we.

More news later.


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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xpmtl,

Here's some info to help you troubleshoot:

1.) Concentrate on the filter/osc since it is the heart of the drum. It runs all the time and you should see a 9V p/p sinewave on PIN 1 of IC3a when it is working correctly. The trigger only opens the VCA and activates the Bend modulation.

2.) Don't worry about the trigger, noise, or LFO till you get the filter working.

Here are the DC voltages for all of the pins on IC4, IC5, and IC6 (CA3086) with the following conditions:

All panel control pots full counter clockwise except the pitch control. Set the pitch control so that you have about -7.78V on the wiper. This sets the pitch on my board to about 500Hz. LFO=OFF, BEND=Down.

DC Voltages:

IC6
Pin 1=5.92V
Pin 2=5.92V
Pin 3=5.97V
Pin 4=6.56V
Pin 5=6.80V
Pin 6=7.44V
Pin 7=6.80V
Pin 8=15.40V
Pin 9=8.00V
Pin 10=7.40V
Pin 11=15.40V
Pin 12=7.00V
Pin 13=6.56V
Pin 14=7.40V

IC5
Pin 1=4.77V
Pin 2=4.76V
Pin 3=4.77V
Pin 4=5.39V
Pin 5=5.67V
Pin 6=6.28V
Pin 7=5.70V
Pin 8=6.56V
Pin 9=6.25V
Pin 10=5.71V
Pin 11=6.58V
Pin 12=5.38V
Pin 13=4.76V
Pin 14=5.66V

IC4
Pin 1=-322mV
Pin 2=-326mV
Pin 3=-323mV
Pin 4=212mV
Pin 5=1.20V
Pin 6=1.20V
Pin 7=750mV
Pin 8=4.16V
Pin 9=1.23V
Pin 10=690mV
Pin 11=4.16V
Pin 12=0V
Pin 13=-356mV
Pin 14=1.20V

** The pins on IC4 with the negative voltages have the 500Hz Osc signal riding on them so the measurements may be a little different when you meas.

Also some other things I measured:

LFO Range:

Low = 18 Secs. to 18Hz
High = 29Hz to 6.8KHz

Decay Time (Also Bend Time):

200mS to 10 Secs.

Run Generator Time:

20mS to 5 Secs.


Hope this helps!

-THeff
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arnoid



Joined: Aug 23, 2009
Posts: 56
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great news this is finally gonna happen Smile




jmejia wrote:
This is really great - thanks guys! So pumped to finally get this thing on track! We'll make the same changes to our prototypes and get this going! As soon as we have a corrected board printed and working we'll do a big community run!


Are you gonna add the LFO and Run Generator to the pcb's ?

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vout



Joined: Oct 06, 2007
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Location: scotland

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Its really great to see so much progress on this project, I'm definitely in for some pcb's if they become available. Many thanks to everyone involved.

Cheers, vout
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jmejia



Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Posts: 114
Location: portland

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

arnoid wrote:

Are you gonna add the LFO and Run Generator to the pcb's ?


Yep - on monday we're going to get back to troubleshooting this guy. Working from the same schematic as xpmtl - the one inherited from Fonik, and pasted on the previous page here. LFO is included (And also the only functional part of our prototype atm) - I'm actually unclear on what the 'Run Generator' is.. can someone explain?
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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
Posts: 158
Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Went to the store and checked a few things yesterday evening.

Voltages on the ICs looks similar to what Tim posted (thanks again Tim Smile )
they are not exactly the same but the pattern is close. I post them tomorrow as i didn't had time to note everything yesterday.

On the other hand i get 14.32V on pin one of IC3 and no sinewave whatsoever. That seem a big difference with Tim's 9V.

If jmejia has the same issues i guess there's something wrong with Fonik schemo, I'll try to compare the two in deep today.

More news tomorrow.

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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, i went thru comparing the original schematic and mine and then Fonik's.

I'd be damned but i didn't found any discrepancies between them apart from :

- The resistor (R17) to ground on the decay pot is 300K on fonik schem., 33K on mine and looking at it closely I read 3K3 on the original schematic.

- C3 on the original schematic is .47uF but on Fonik's it's 47n. (I had fitted mine with 470n)

Other than that, can't see anything different.

Now i'm in the dark again.

Obi-Wan, you're our only hope...

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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jmejia,

The Run Generator is simply a staircase waveform applied to the filter/osc CV so that each time you trigger the drum it steps the pitch down. I played with it a little bit and it's kind of tricky to get the timing right.

xpmtl,

Are you sure you have the FETs installed correctly? It sound like you have a large DC offset on IC3.

-THeff
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jmejia



Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Posts: 114
Location: portland

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the info THeff!

xpmtl - I will be able to report back with some findings tues evening, or more likely weds morning!
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xpmtl,

The 2.7M feedback resistor R39 on your schematic needs to connect to pin 2 of IC3a (- input) and is shown connected to pin 3.

-THeff
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xpmtl,

I noticed that I gave the wrong information about connecting pins 2 & 3 of IC3a. I said that pins 2 & 3 of IC3a are swapped and I should have said that Resistors R50 & R51 are swapped. Listing out the junctions of these parts caused further errors and confusion.

Here is the right way:

* All designations are from the original schematic *

1.) Resistor R53 (820k) remains connected to pin 3 of IC3a.
2.) Resistor R52 (2.7M) remains connected to pin 2 of (IC3a).
3.) Resistor R50 (10k) connects to pin3 of IC3a and R53.
4.) Resistor R51 (10k) connects to pin2 of IC3a and R52.

This explains the large DC offset you are seeing on the output of IC3a. Hopefully this will get you going. Sorry for screwing up your PCB...Doh!

-THeff
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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
Posts: 158
Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't worry Tim, i didn't wait your last post to screw it by myself Very Happy

I spent all day trying stuff and busting things around, that pcb is a wreck now.

Sooo, i did your last corrections and woohoo, i got a sinewave at pin 1 but... it's only 2V p/p Crying or Very sad (at least it's centered Smile )

I see it but odly i can't hear anything when i hook up my speakers, thought 2V p/p would be enough for that.

Anyways, here are my voltages :

IC6
Pin 1=5.98V
Pin 2=5.98V
Pin 3=5.98V
Pin 4=6.52V
Pin 5=6.90V
Pin 6=7.43V
Pin 7=6.90V
Pin 8=15.01V
Pin 9=7.44V
Pin 10=6.90V
Pin 11=15.00V
Pin 12=6.52V
Pin 13=5.92V
Pin 14=6.90V

IC5
Pin 1=3.78V
Pin 2=3.78V
Pin 3=3.78V
Pin 4=4.60V
Pin 5=5.06V
Pin 6=5.57V
Pin 7=5.06V
Pin 8=5.90V
Pin 9=5.58V
Pin 10=5.06V
Pin 11=5.97V
Pin 12=4.67V
Pin 13=4.16V
Pin 14=5.08V

IC4
Pin 1=-929mV
Pin 2=-929mV
Pin 3=-930mV
Pin 4=-274mV
Pin 5=1.18V
Pin 6=970mV
Pin 7=980mV
Pin 8=3.79V
Pin 9=1.18V
Pin 10=1.25V
Pin 11=4.16V
Pin 12=0V
Pin 13=-692mV
Pin 14=970mV

FETs

G: 6.90V
S: 9.85V
D: 15.01

G: 6.90V
S: 10.32V
D: 15.01

I'll spend some time on it again tomorrow but i think i need to make a new board, can't really trust that one now that it is in this state.

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THeff



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Does the pitch control work? Maybe the sine wave is too high to hear. That may be why it's only 2v p/p.

-THeff
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xpmtl



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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Only had an hour to fiddle with it yesterday but i made some progress.

I got most of the functions working and got sound now...

BUT

- Pitch pot doesn't work, only a small spot on the pot actually does something. It's not sweeping, more like when you turn the knob, it's silent then at one point it passes signal then silent again. i checked if the pot was busted but it's fine actually.
- Filter still buggy
- Noise doesn't work

I need to disable the LFO as i think it's what i'm hearing at the output (didn't use a switch for that). That will allow me to concentrate on the vcf as even if i see the sine wave, i got the impression it doesn't reach the output.


Need to look more into all that, i'll do that this week.

More later

EDIT : Noise works now, there's an error in Matthias schematic, Cap C15 is not at the right place.

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THeff



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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would recommend that you re-number the parts in the Eagle schematic to match the original schematic. It will make it much easier to troubleshoot and cross check.

-Theff
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jmejia



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok - well we had similar findings to xpmtl.

Decay has some effect over 2 frequencies, one high frequency, and one lower. We added a pitch pot per Michael B's recommendation (will attach a drawing later), but neither it, nor the global pitch pot have any effect on the oscillations.

We encorporated all the fixes mentioned by THeff (except for led orienation - because they seem to be working correctly), and we also fixed the resistor location on the lfo that xpmtl mentioned. (We moved the resistor - not the cap - but I'm sure it's the same fix.)

The lfo runs, but sounds mixed with the main output - it doesn't modulate the ringing tones. The 2 tones ring for a very long time - and decay does have some control over them - but we are using a linear pot and haven't swapped it out with a log yet. The only other pots that are working are LFO rate, and GAIN. The lfo switches work as well.

We didn't change the trigger input at all - it is triggering on falling edge.

We measured pin voltages - everything looks pretty close to THeff's list (except IC4 is kind of all over the place).

We do get a sine wave on IC3, but it is less than a volt peak to peak. This is the high frequency we are hearing. The low frequency sounds almost like ground hum - but it effected by the decay.

Noise is doing nothing, but we may have the twisted wire thing wrong, haven't done that before. Just 2 disconnected twisted, jacketed wires or what?

NOTE: we don't have the run generator on this board (it's pretty much the schematic xpmtl posted)

Any thoughts/ideas? We are going to re-draw the schematic with these applied changes... but clearly there is still more to fix!
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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
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Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm in the process of redrawing everything based on the original schematic with the same references as the original as advised by Tim.

It's kind of a long process as I have to change the value of each components manually. Should have finished this weekend if time permits.

jmejia, noise circuit should work if you change the capacitor placement, compare with the original schematic. The twisted wires only change the quality of noise.

For me Decay works but it is too long even at minimum value. I'm sure the resistor in series with the pot is too big on my board (haven't changed it yet).

Bend pot also does something, it adds a kind of delay between impact and the output.

Up/down switch doesn't do much.

Impact pot works.

LFO works tho triangle wave is a bit shy.

If you can post your pitch circuit it would be great. I was asking myself why the original schematic only have the overall pitch pot. On the SDS3 there's an individual pitch pot that i couldn't locate...

More news when i got a new board going.
x.

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