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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Synare 3 repair
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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
Posts: 45
Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Synare 3 repair Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi guys. I purchased used synare 3, and it seems dead. I put batteries and plugged jack, and nothing goes on at all. I checked battery to board connections, it seems ok, also soldering points seems good too. Any tips what should I check? I saw service manual, but it was frustrating, as it is written for different parts. I am pretty newbie in electronic, but I have solder and multimeter. Please make your suggestions how to fix this. I will make a picture if you need.

http://imageshack.us/a/img197/7070/rn2t.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/1488/c7xw.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img21/8885/dqm1.jpg
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Osal



Joined: Aug 16, 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would start looking at the supply part. Just look if there is something burnt. Look if the regulators are producing the proper voltages.

Try to recognize the supply section with the help of the schematics. Just the supply part! "Regulators" in the service manual.

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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
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Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I tried to find the "Regulators" I noticed this:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8290/ahbp.jpg
Do you think it should be so? It is plus and minus wires from different batteries to board. I mean shouldn`t they not to be connected in one place?

UPD: read that it is ok, used to summarize power
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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
Posts: 45
Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Sorry for simple question. What is actually regulators are? knobs? what this square that should have 12v and 6.2v?
And what is the circle written below REG, is it knob?
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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
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Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So this part "regulators" seems ok. This two 0.01 capacitors, are green on photo. I mesuared another capacitors, same polarity on both outputs, it means they broken?
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2081/ucyv.jpg
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Osal



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kosmo Mishka wrote:

Sorry for simple question. What is actually regulators are?

A regulator produces a constant voltage in its output besides of the voltage variations in the input.
(ej.) The battery voltage decreases as it is going discharged, but using a regulator we can have a constant voltage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator

Quote:
what this square that should have 12v and 6.2v?

They are the regulators. They must be the two TO-92 packages that are next the darlington transistors, side by side with the green capacitors.
Can you read any mark on them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TO-92

Quote:
And what is the circle written below REG, is it knob?

Since they have draw the schematics in sections, they need this to indicate that this connect to another schematic section.
Look the pages 3 and 4 of the service manual:
http://clacktronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Star_Synare_S3_Service_Manual.pdf
The two "reg" circles, the one in the "battery saver circuit" and the other in the "regulators" are the same point. (or they are connected)

Quote:
I measured another capacitors, same polarity on both outputs, it means they broken?

We need a reference voltage to measure the voltage in other circuit points. By now, lets take the negative voltage from the batteries as a reference and lets measure the two regulators' outputs to see what voltages they are producing. First, lets see what regulators they are. Look for marks in the packages.

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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
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Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Many thanks on your reply. That section is ok. Also I checked oscillators on tune pots, and noise with headphones and it works too. But noise is very quite in compare of oscillators level. Next I think of finding filter output, right?
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Osal



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kosmo Mishka wrote:
Many thanks on your reply. That section is ok. Also I checked oscillators on tune pots, and noise with headphones and it works too. But noise is very quite in compare of oscillators level. Next I think of finding filter output, right?

Yes, you must check the device section by section and determine what exactly is not working properly.

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Kosmo Mishka



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Filter inputs and outputs works, but very low. Should it be so? Generators on pots are much louder. Do VCA works as amplifier or just like enveloper?
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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
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Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry last post, I messed up and listened to 7 leg of 3080, it is not output. Nothing goes to filter input, and so nothing on output. I tried to make it self oscillate, and there is nothing too.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Here mesuarments I have, osc1 and osc2 off, max resonance. What does it mean? Dead 3080 or mpsa14?

Also here where signal from oscillators to filter losting
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6996/ehih.jpg
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Osal



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kosmo Mishka wrote:

Also here where signal from oscillators to filter losting
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6996/ehih.jpg

How you are measuring it? In that node it must be a small signal due the voltage divider. You should see that with an oscilloscope.

I'll try this weekend to read the service manual. By now, I think that we're a little lost.
What is exactly that doesn't work, using the device normally? I mean as a normal user, with the device in its case.

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Kosmo Mishka



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
How you are measuring it? In that node it must be a small signal due the voltage divider. You should see that with an oscilloscope.
With multimetr, I`ll try once again, I think multimetr showed not 0, but something like 0.1V.

Quote:
What is exactly that doesn't work, using the device normally? I mean as a normal user, with the device in its case

No sound at all, I tried different settings (switching oscillators, turning resonance to max etc).
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Osal



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kosmo Mishka wrote:

No sound at all, I tried different settings (switching oscillators, turning resonance to max etc).


Ok, so we should trace the signal from the source to the output to find where it is lost.

To trace an audio signal the ideal would be an oscilloscope. With the multimeter you could measure AC but I see it more difficult. Could you have an oscilloscope?

The signal in the 3080 inputs is very small due the voltage dividers.
The output of the 3080 is current, so you can not read voltage there. Try to measure it in the emitter of the transistor that follows the 3080.

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Osal



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are you considering the "battery saver circuit"? It disconnects the device 10-20 seconds after the last strike on the playing surface. See the service manual.
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Kosmo Mishka



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Are you considering the "battery saver circuit"? It disconnects the device 10-20 seconds after the last strike on the playing surface. See the service manual.
Thank you. I think "batter saver circuit" and "regulators" works. Regulators give proper voltage and it stops after 10-20 sec (batter saver).

Quote:
To trace an audio signal the ideal would be an oscilloscope. With the multimeter you could measure AC but I see it more difficult. Could you have an oscilloscope?

Sorry, don`t think so, I looked now and they seems pretty expensive.


Quote:
Try to measure it in the emitter of the transistor that follows the 3080.
From first to fourth stage: -5.1V, -5V, -5.2V, -2.7V.

Quote:
The signal in the 3080 inputs is very small due the voltage dividers.

Maybe it matters but on stage 2,3,4 on 3080 input there is -0.01V, on first stage it is zero. I think I need to check every stage of filter, but not sure how to do it. In manual p.8 it written that "filter should pass osc1 (res min, tune max), do you think it is like bypass? So I should hear pure osc1 if connect something like speakers to jack as minus, and plus to emmiter of transistor next to 3080?
I want to try it, but I am worry that will burn something. Because I am getting negative values on emmiter.
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Osal



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kosmo Mishka wrote:
Many thanks on your reply. That section is ok. Also I checked oscillators on tune pots, and noise with headphones and it works too. But noise is very quite in compare of oscillators level. Next I think of finding filter output, right?


OK If there is no oscilloscope, we can try to trace the signal like this.

In the filter section, set the "tune" and the "decay" full open (clockwise) and the other controls full close (counterclockwise).
Try if you can hear the "osc1", the "noise" , the "osc2" and the "osc2 low" in the last stage of the filter.

In the amplifier section, set the decay full open clockwise, trig the device. Check if you can hear something in the output of the 3080 VCA. According the service manual (pag 14) is the ca3080 in the right, at the right of the one marked a #4. The pin 6 is the output.

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Osal



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kosmo Mishka wrote:
In manual p.8 it written that "filter should pass osc1 (res min, tune max), do you think it is like bypass?

Yes.

Quote:
So I should hear pure osc1 if connect something like speakers to jack as minus, and plus to emmiter of transistor next to 3080?

If the signal is big enough to move the speaker yes.
I have a power amplifier with probes and a speaker that I use when I want to hear to any part of a circuit.

Quote:
I want to try it, but I am worry that will burn something. Because I am getting negative values on emmiter.

Yes, to damage something is a possibility.
Be carefully, touch everything with care, avoid shorts, etc...you have the chance of learn about the device.

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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I listened to emitter next to 3080, there is nothing. However I bought 2 new CA3080. I switched first stage 3080, and there is signal on emitter, it is osc1. However no sound from VCA.
Manual say there is no way to test out is there is faulty VCA 3080 or envelopes.
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Kosmo Mishka



Joined: Apr 18, 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I replaced 3080 of VCA, and it works! Thank you for tips^ Going to meditate with this drum
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Osal



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Glad to hear that! You achieved it! Very Happy
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