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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
PCB layout for Ian Fritz' AD/AR EG
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LFLab



Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Posts: 187
Location: Rosmalen, Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm building a quad of these using the dual Bugbrand layout. Stuffed the boards but haven't tested them yet. I was wondering about these caps as well, used 3u3 filmcaps. If it works with electrolytics it'll work with flmcaps. I think the envelope generators are unipolar so electrolytics should be ok, i put in film just to be shure.
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1710
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

furio wrote:
My pots are 100KA and 500KA.
I have some difficulty to choose the cap values Sad
With the first attempt I used C1 4u7 and C1x 470nF and now C1 1uF and C1x 1nF. But I think there is no end, the envelope is still running non-stop! Should I have used polarized caps for both?

First, C1 is for the shorter times and C1+C1x is for the longer times. So you would want C1x to be larger than C1.

What exactly do you mean by running nonstop?

Very Happy

Ian
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furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks to all!

I've used a bigger C1x (sorry my post above was written the opposite way C1/C1x)

non-stop meaning it just start without Attack/Decay curves, running without end Wink

maybe I am having difficultie finding some short on the PCB, but I have mixed Electrolytic and Film caps for the timing scratch

I am sorry for being such a bother... but I certainly need advise! I feel I have a better chance of repairing the problem with more help and insight from the outside!


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furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi to all!

I have solved the problem, it was the MFB MIDI_2_CV or the Doepfer A-140 ADSR connected on the same Gate BUS. For some strange reason it crashed the gate on this interface Smile

With the A-190-3 USB_2_CV 5V Gate or the MIDIMPLAT 15V Gate by Roman Sowa using C1 470n and C1x 4u7 timing caps works fine for me.

The only problem is a too high CV ground sound with my VCA's using the fastest Attack/Decay. Which is the better way to reduce this glitch/click produced by the envelope output to control a VCA_CV?
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furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would like to apologize to Mr. Fritz be it that I have made a modification that is without any style! I have only followed my own intuition.. and this is the result thereof... seeing that my knowledge of the electronic world is rather limited! This is what I did.

I cut the trace between the potentiometers and C1 and then jumped with a 8K2 resistor. If I should need to modify another envelope, I'll try some lower values.
Now I have one of the four envelopes which I assembled and found it to be compatible to control all my VCA's.

If someone could help, I attached the drawings for the euro modification to the PCB and my euro panel. I have used Musikding's 5x10cm PCB's, 16 HE/TE (8cm) Euro Panel and Lazertran.


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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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Location: NM USA
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

furio wrote:
I cut the trace between the potentiometers and C1 and then jumped with a 8K2 resistor.

That's a good idea. The Bridechamber version has 1k resistors in series with each pot. The Elby version has 270R in series with the A pot and 1k in series with the D pot. Using a larger value makes sense for your version with the switched cap.

Very Happy

Ian
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Silesius



Joined: Feb 12, 2010
Posts: 61
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, I'm building a dual AD/AR following Bugbrand layout. I'm testing it and it's working fine. However, I have a question regarding this circuit. I would like to make it retrigger itself, to use it as an LFO as well. My knowledge of electronics is very limited, so I think I'm missing something.
The idea is to use Ken Stone's slope detector circuit. I think that's what I need for the job.
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs62_sd.html

I'm using just the fall out portion and it's working nice as well; it outputs a pulse when the envelope falls without problems. Now, I though it would be just a matter of routing this pulse back into the envelope's input, but that's not working. Sometimes everything stops, sometimes it works but very fast, almost in audio range. Too much for using it as LFO...

I know there must be a way for this to work, but I can't see it; any help will be very appreciated.[/img]
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elmegil



Joined: Mar 20, 2012
Posts: 1448
Location: Chicago
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you're retriggering when it *starts* to fall, you never let the "D" portion of the envelope complete before you're retriggering.

You need to set a level below which it retriggers as well, something close to ground. So you need slope detection and also level detection and a way to combine them to generate the trigger.

Not sure HOW you'd do that off the top of my head though.
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1710
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Silesius wrote:
Hi, I'm building a dual AD/AR following Bugbrand layout. I'm testing it and it's working fine. However, I have a question regarding this circuit. I would like to make it retrigger itself, to use it as an LFO as well. My knowledge of electronics is very limited, so I think I'm missing something.
The idea is to use Ken Stone's slope detector circuit. I think that's what I need for the job.
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs62_sd.html

I'm using just the fall out portion and it's working nice as well; it outputs a pulse when the envelope falls without problems. Now, I though it would be just a matter of routing this pulse back into the envelope's input, but that's not working. Sometimes everything stops, sometimes it works but very fast, almost in audio range. Too much for using it as LFO...

I know there must be a way for this to work, but I can't see it; any help will be very appreciated.[/img]

That early design has been supplanted by the 4x4 Envelope Generator:
http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sy_cir12_4x4.htm
You can buy boards or a kit for this from Elby.
I don't know enough about the slope detector to say if it could be made to work as you desire.

Ian
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diablojoy



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 795
Location: melbourne australia
Audio files: 11

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

use a window comparator circuit with upper threshold near zero volts and lower threshold at zero volts
and then 'AND' that with the 'falling' output of the slope detector, the output of the AND gate will only output a signal when both its inputs are high
so you will only get a retrigger when the EG is near to completing its cycle

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sonicwarrior



Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 226
Location: Cologne, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
That early design has been supplanted by the 4x4 Envelope Generator:
http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sy_cir12_4x4.htm


No documentation? Schematics?
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1710
Location: NM USA
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sonicwarrior wrote:
No documentation? Schematics?

Schematics for all my commercial projects have been taken down because of theft. Operation of all the 4x4 features is in a doc at Elby's:
http://www.elby-designs.com/contents/en-us/ed114-guide.pdf

Ian
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sonicwarrior



Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 226
Location: Cologne, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For Oakley and MOTM modules I get at least the schematics when I order the corresponding boards. Sad
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1710
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sonicwarrior wrote:
For Oakley and MOTM modules I get at least the schematics when I order the corresponding boards. Sad

Has either of them had circuits stolen and used for commercial purposes?

Anyway, I can work with builders on an individual basis, and anyone who is, let's say, a member in good standing around the forums can get circuits for boards they buy.

Ian
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sonicwarrior



Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 226
Location: Cologne, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, I forgot to answer. Embarassed

I'll finish my two existing original All-In EG first before deciding whether to order the advanced one Elby is offering.
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jmejia



Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Posts: 114
Location: portland

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is the bridechamber version different/older than the current 4x4?

I'm not clear on what 4x4 indicates as the elby version looks like a single envelope on board... or am I mistaken?

I'd love to build a quad or at least dual version into my 5u system, but am not really sure what pcbs to use.
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furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jmejia wrote:
Is the bridechamber version different/older than the current 4x4?

I'm not clear on what 4x4 indicates as the elby version looks like a single envelope on board... or am I mistaken?

I'd love to build a quad or at least dual version into my 5u system, but am not really sure what pcbs to use.


it seems similar to what was mentioned above!

I am very happy with this PCB's I've made... simply, these envelopes are very interesting to use slowly... I am beginning to have less consideration for the metal film restistors, they could be the cause of a malfunction of the CV and bad sound into the audio path, because comparing to carbon film the metal film reduces the bandwidth. With restricted bandwidth the CV looses the character and for example by controlling the VCA could become more noisy... up to accentuate pops & clicks.
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sonicwarrior



Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 226
Location: Cologne, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

furio wrote:
because comparing to carbon film the metal film reduces the bandwidth.


Never heard of that. Aren't metal film resistors supposed to superior in every way to carbon film?
Never had any problems using metal film with CV so far. Confused Maybe your metal film resistor brand just sucks. Idea
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furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sonicwarrior wrote:
furio wrote:
because comparing to carbon film the metal film reduces the bandwidth.


Never heard of that. Aren't metal film resistors supposed to superior in every way to carbon film?
Never had any problems using metal film with CV so far. Confused Maybe your metal film resistor brand just sucks. Idea


there are different types, performances and prices of carbon and metal film... in the audio path, for example, prefer to use the Takman REX... as a minimum, if it would be a OPA2132 as OPAMP... OPA2134 also works fine with a cheaper metal film, though it tends to take an acidic direction rather than a musical.
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jmejia wrote:
Is the bridechamber version different/older than the current 4x4?

Yes. a one-pager on the 4x4 is attached. Also, there is a demo at my utube site:
http://www.youtube.com/user/frijitz001

Ian


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