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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
4053 Hex SPDT Switch
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analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: 4053 Hex SPDT Switch Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi All.

Just thought I'd put my latest lunetta circuit up. I don't know if it's totally original, but I couldn't find another one exactly the same anyway. My idea was to produce an interesting long sequence by switching between two modulation sources using the "SPDT switches" in a CMOS 4053. I wanted at least 4 switches, so I used 2 x 4053, giving 6 switches. I have attached the schematic below (I've finally got around to using some CAD software). I've also attached an mp3 demo of the efffects. The patch was as follows:

The first 4 switch control inputs were connected to outputs Q5-Q8 of a 4040 counter (which was connected to reset after the eighth output). The 4040 was clocked by a 40106 LFO.

The first 4 switch "poles" were connected to a (slightly modified) PHOBoS R/2R circuit, see:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-55465.html

The first 4 "normally ons" were connected to selected steps of a 4017 in a modified Casper 4 x 8 sequencer, see:

http://casperelectronics.com/finished-pieces/sequencers/step-sequencer/

This was clocked by Q2 of the 4040 (i.e. a quarter of the LFO frequency).

The first 4 "normally offs" were connected to the Q1-Q4 outputs of the 4040.

All of this means that the output of the R/2R is modulated by a complex sequence of mixed binary counting (4040) and the selected 4017 outputs. It is a finite sequence, which in this case repeats every 30 seconds (roughly). I finally fed the R/2R output into the CV input of PHOBoS' 4046 VCO (same link as the R/2R). The recording has this ouput, first straight and then with the glide turned on.

As a further source of modulation, you can use the inhibit pins of the 4053s. This only affects the "normally off" parts of the sequence. The secord part of the recording (after a fade-out) shows the effect of this, first without glide and then with glide. The inhibit was modulated using a second 40106 LFO.

Since these switches are transmission gates, the signals can be sent in either direction and (I think) you could also send audio signals through them (but you'd probably need to add capacitors to the inputs and outputs).

I hope that this all makes sense! Let me know if you think of any changes that could be made to improve the circuit - I'm eager to learn.

Gary


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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool use for the 4053's Cool

If it don't burn up and shatter the windows, I'm okay with leaving an effect as is. Love the melodic sequences there. I've used the 4052, 4051, and the 4512 (similar in function) to create fun beats and patterns. Any lunetta build, big or small, can benefit from them. Good work!

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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for that Draal. There seems to be a really great scope for this kind of circuit in building up complex (and hopefully interesting) sequences.

Draal wrote:
I've used the 4052, 4051, and the 4512 (similar in function) to create fun beats and patterns.

I've looked at my component inventory (sadly, I have one on Excel) and I've got all of those. I've used the 4051 before on my "Super Stylophone" sequencer. The other two, I haven't played with yet, so that's several more hours fun mapped out - thanks for the advice.

Gary
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: PHOBoS - 4 x 5 = 3
Subject description: That's Logic!
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thumleft


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analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I really liked that again PHOBoS! It's rather different to the dissonant recording that I did a couple of days ago. I faded in three 40106 drones, then four gated 4093 bass notes (controlled by the Casper-style sequencer) and finally that sequence (or something very similar anyway). The glide comes in about 2/3 of the way through it. There's also a bit of reverb from my old BBD echo. See what you think...

Gary


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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like that Smile
gives me the impression of something approaching
(no, not a shark,. but I'm not sure if it's a entirely friendly either,. it seems to have fun though)

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RingMad



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice sounds, guys! I'm a little too braindead to understand the circuit right now (I just finally finished a challenging repair of an addition I made to my crazy speaker installation control box... it involved a 4053 at the heart of it... then I noticed something didn't work right and added a 4066... and that still didn't work so now after adding a 4081, it works.... uh, anyway... nice sounds!)

James.
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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks PHOBoS/James.

PHOBoS wrote:
I like that Smile
gives me the impression of something approaching
(no, not a shark,. but I'm not sure if it's a entirely friendly either,. it seems to have fun though)

I like a little menace in my music Twisted Evil

I've discovered a small problem with the circuit tonight, but I think that it's easily remedied (I hope). On certain patches, it was causing unexpected (and not very useful) results. I'll try my very small amendment (probably tomorrow) and update the schematic, if it works OK.

Gary

P.S. Glad you got it working in the end James (whatever it was Laughing )
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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Updated Schematic Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi.

I've made a small change to the schematic, so that you can switch the inputs/outputs between +6V and 0V. I originally just had the +6V, as I read that this minimises the pops if you pass audio through the switch. However, I found that with some digital circuits, this was causing problems and pulling them down to 0V was best (hence the switch).

A question for PHOBoS. I have also built your Bandersnatch RND Generator:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-55756.html

This seemed to be working fine, until I connected the clock input of the RND to any of my 4053 switch inputs/outputs. It then seemed to behave very erratically or stopped doing anything. I originally thought that this was down to the +6V, but it was the same at 0V. I've solved the problem (for now) by replacing the the transistor circuit with a diode and 1K0 resistor in series to pin 3 of the 4006 and a 100K pull-down resistor between pin 3 and 0V. Any idea of why this could be happening? Also, I'm interested to find out why you put transistors on these clock inputs. I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but I don't know the answer!

Gary


4053 Hex SPDT Switch (Rev 1.1).gif
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Updated Schematic Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

analog_backlash wrote:
I've made a small change to the schematic, so that you can switch the inputs/outputs between +6V and 0V. I originally just had the +6V, as I read that this minimises the pops if you pass audio through the switch. However, I found that with some digital circuits, this was causing problems and pulling them down to 0V was best (hence the switch).

that makes sense, for analog circuits it's indeed best to bias the inputs at half the supply voltage, but you're source should be at this voltage too
or you'll have to add a capacitor in series to remove any DC offset. Digital circuits however don't really know what to do with a voltage that's not
close to 0 or the supply voltage which can make them behave unpredictable.

Quote:
A question for PHOBoS. I have also built your Bandersnatch RND Generator:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-55756.html

This seemed to be working fine, until I connected the clock input of the RND to any of my 4053 switch inputs/outputs. It then seemed to behave very erratically or stopped doing anything. I originally thought that this was down to the +6V, but it was the same at 0V. I've solved the problem (for now) by replacing the the transistor circuit with a diode and 1K0 resistor in series to pin 3 of the 4006 and a 100K pull-down resistor between pin 3 and 0V. Any idea of why this could be happening? Also, I'm interested to find out why you put transistors on these clock inputs. I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but I don't know the answer!


hmm let's see if I can figure this out. First of all I use the transistors to be able to use a wider range of input signals. If I would power it with 12V
then I wouldn't be able to use 0/5V input signals (from a PIC or other device that runs on 5V). The transistor switches at a much lower voltage
so It doesn't really matter what I put in as long as it's either 0V or higher then ± 1.5V. There's another thing it also inverts the signal, sometimes it
doesn't matter and sometimes I actually want it to be, else I'll just place an inverter behind it. The diode is for protection in case I want to connect
it to my modular or anything else that can put out a negative voltage

hmm, but why doesn't it work with your switch. That it didn't work with the +6v makes sense. but otherwise you'll just have an extra resistor to GND
on the input (50K with switch closed, 100K with switch open or inhibited pin high) so that should work. Maybe it still doesn't get low enough
because of the 4053 (I doubt it) in which case reducing the resistor attached between the base of the transistor and GND could solve it. Or otherwise
putting another gate in front of it should definitely work. But you probably don't need it anyway Wink (it's just a normal CLK input and the transistor is
not needed to produce random bits)

but I can only make some guesses, I would have to do some measurements myself to be sure

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analog_backlash



Joined: Sep 04, 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for that PHOBoS - that seems to make a lot of sense. I might add alternative inputs/outputs (via capacitors) for audio signals. I haven't really got around to trying out non-digital sources yet, I was just trying to think ahead for possible future apps.

I'm not too worried about the transistor problem at the moment, as I seem to have got it working OK without it. I'll think about it another time Very Happy

Gary
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nathanxl



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi.
I have a need to switch 2 inputs out to one output from a gate trigger.
Say two different oscillators that alternate at the output to a single channel on a mixer when the gate trigger is high/low respectively.

Is this circuit what I need?
Cant really get my head around what is happening in the schem... Basically because Im stuupid.

Can some one dumb it down for me and explain what I need?
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nathanxl wrote:
Hi.
I have a need to switch 2 inputs out to one output from a gate trigger.
Say two different oscillators that alternate at the output to a single channel on a mixer when the gate trigger is high/low respectively.

Is this circuit what I need?
Cant really get my head around what is happening in the schem... Basically because Im stuupid.

Can some one dumb it down for me and explain what I need?

hmm let me see, please correct me if I'm wrong but from your question I get that you want a switch to select between 2 audio inputs. But instead
of a mechanical switch you want to do it with a gate signal ?

That can be done pretty easy, and you don't need the full circuit posted here, allthough with some small adjustments it could be used for that.
here's something that is more like what you want:


This version is for 4 stereo signals. and with the switch you can step through all 4 channels. But you don't need the control circuit (made with
FF1, FF2, N1..N4). All you have to do is invert the gate signal for one of the switch control pins. And you only need 1 CD4066, which gives you 4
switches so could switch 2 stereo channels or 4 monochannels.

having said that, this is the lunetta section so if you just need to switch the signal from 2 squarewave oscillators it can be done easier Rolling Eyes

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nathanxl



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:

hmm let me see, please correct me if I'm wrong but from your question I get that you want a switch to select between 2 audio inputs. But instead
of a mechanical switch you want to do it with a gate signal ?


Yes and thankyou for your prompt reply Phobos.
Ive used 4066s before for auto switching, they are very handy. From my understanding, at least the way I have used them is for each input there is an on/off switch.
I want a switch that is on/on between two inputs.

Thankyou for the attached pic, Im still not certain it does what Im looking for.
From the looks of it the inputs are split to 2 chips, and you mention having to invert one switch input.
So this will give me each input alternating it output between the chips.
Is this right?

http://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/MAX394.pdf
If the MAX394 IN pin can be used as an output and the N pins used as inputs then this is the funtionality Im looking for.
I hope I have Ive made myself clearer.
Thanks
.
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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for replying PHOBoS - it saved me having to think too much!!! I was also thinking along the lines of using 4066s - I'm still not completely sure why this wouldn't work for your application nathanxl (probably I'm very stupid as well). The MAX394 does seem to do a similar job to the 4053 that I used (but the 4053 is far cheaper). Also, I wonder how easy the MAX394 is to get - I haven't found a UK source yet, but the US may be different. I have found the DG307 which might also be applicable (maybe):

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/87592.pdf

Perhaps PHOBoS will have a better grasp on this (almost certainly, in fact).

Gary
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, you could also do it with a 4053 (4066 was just the first thing that came to mind). So I've drawn 2 schematics:
one using a 4066 and a transistor as in inverter, the other one using a 4053 which doesn't need in inverter.
It also has one spare switch (if you use it for stereo signals) which you could use for some indicator LED's.

you can find some more info on the biasing for analog signals here

note: for the 4066 version a high gate will select input 1, for the 4053 version a high gate will select input 2. (can be changed of course)


dual analog switch (4066).gif
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dual [analog] switch using a CD4066
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dual analog switch (4053).gif
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dual [analog] switch using a CD4053
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analog_backlash



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks again for that PHOBoS Very Happy . The biasing link looks really useful too. I've not done much lunettaring lately as I've been going off on several different tangents (and I've been a bit pissed off, to tell the truth - nothing to do with electronics, just life in general Crying or Very sad ). Anyway, I've got myself going again and one of the many things I wanted to try (eventually) was to put audio signals through the 4053 circuit. This should be of great help.

Gary
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nathanxl



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thankyou so much Master Phobos.
I will breadboard these and report back.

Thankyou.
N
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