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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Circuit Bending
zero-input mixer as a performance instrument
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

State Machine wrote:
With regard to using samples, I don't plan on playing or processing sounds from prepared samples, but rather will create samples in real time from the feedback generated sounds during the performance. Especially the very distinctive ones. Ones that can be recognized easily. Thus, these samples could be used, for example, during the movement entitled "TIME TRAVEL" and played back again some seconds later so the past is now the present.

Excellent plan, Bill!

I love to capture performance-time samples of my banjo playing, then time-stretch or pitch-shift (or both) to create a background "bed of lettuce" against which I can solo.

I love your suggestion for TIME TRAVEL. Something else to steal for my bag of potential tricks Twisted Evil

Spent today working around a string buzz at frets 2 and 3 of string 4 of my new Nechville electronic banjo, trying to get ready for my solo set at em2013. I am going play around those frets if I can't get it fixed in time. Rolling Eyes

See you soon!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Dale. Steal away. !!! Wink

Been playing around with VOICES segment this evening and found a handy way to create a human like voice that literally sings. To do this, take an AUX send out of one of your mixer channels (PRE FADER AUX1 for example) that is in oscillation and feed that into a vocoder unit. Pull the oscillating channel from the MAIN MIX so you only hear the vocoder and there you go. Now experiment with different EQ settings in the oscillating channel while varying the vocoder band for variety.

Experiment and have fun !!!

Bill
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds like you are having fun, Bill Very Happy This is exciting!

After 42 years of playing banjo and a few more than that playing guitar, I adjusted a truss rod for the very first time tonight. The buzz on the 4th string is gone, and I have been having a blast working out my Acoustic Interloper set.

Meetings much of tomorrow, but I am absolutely getting back onto Zero-Input Mixer starting tomorrow. Most of my feedback FX are software inside Ableton. I made a nice vocoder patch for the Unit Impulse, single-banjo-note-processed-for-a-half-an-hour piece I played in the March Equinox webcast. Sort of background whispers and moans. I'll have to dig that one up and see what it can do for VOICES.

Thanks for pumping up the energy on this, Bill. I can't wait.

Dale

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This idea goes along with the "work the nonlinear sections of the feedback paths."

I have found if I route a feedback path through Live and use an effect (ring modulator in this case), setting the wet / dry on the effect to 0% (all dry) just uses the mixer feedback sound (of course!), setting it to 100% wet often makes the effect dominate the sound, while playing around in the middle often creates an "oscillating effect effect" where the effect tends to waver in and out, and to do other unusual things. Wiggling that wet / dry control around is a good way to fish for this meta-effect.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: matrix mixer experiments revisited Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

finally edited and mixed some of the earlier sessions and posted it here. Cool

hope to hear some of what you'll be doing at EM2013. (record!)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Zero Input Experiment by Shivasongster Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For my first test I used the Line 6 DL4 and EHX Cathedral routed as monitor and FX sends respectively on a small mixer. All sounds are made by feeding both units back into one another and into themselves. Recorded with a Zoom H4N direct off the mixer.

Before uploading, I rolled off considerable energy at 44 Hz and 50 Hz, but otherwise this is as-is. Had some rhythmic stuff going that didn't get recorded, but I think I can do it again and it could work for the Engines segment.

Will keep exploring tomorrow.


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Zero Input Test 8/25/13 Shivasongster

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joowon



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Joo Won's newest no-input mixing board exploration Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all,

I look forward to do play with you on EM2013. Here's my newest piece using no-input mixer (Behringer UB1002) and computer (running SuperCollider).

https://soundcloud.com/joowon/largeintestine

While we are at it, here's my previous experiment with NIMB on Youtube.

http://youtu.be/QKcs8_-rLAc
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds good, PHOBoS, Jeremy and Joo Won. I have been listening to these 3 pieces at various bed times over the last week. One of them gave me some ideas about putting a headphone->mic feedback loop into which I can whisper in a mixer feedback path, that worked pretty well, although I totally forgot to use it during this afternoon's practice.

I hooked up sndpeek to my practice session today, attached is a screen shot of Time Travel. I had hoped to enhance this visualizer & use the enhanced version for visuals next weekend. I never got time to make the enhancements during summer, but I am still kicking around the idea of concentrating my efforts on sndpeek visuals + conducting, since there are many of us in the collab. I want to talk with Steve Mokris to see what he has in mind. It's something that we can decide at electro-music.

At this point I've got way more sounds than time, hopefully I will remember the good ones Very Happy See you all soon.


Screen shot 2013-08-31 at 1.01.06 PM.png
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Today's run through the Time Travel.
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: feedback tuned by voice pitch
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Here's a little sample of today's VOICE practice. New bit of instrumental technique, inspired by John Driscoll's ultrasonic feedback of last year in some ways.

So, my mixer has 3 feedback paths -- one thru its FX unit, one thru the laptop (Live), and one through FX -> headphones -> mic. For this sample I used only the FX -> headphones -> mic path, with some reverb on the FX (mostly for sustain).

I sort of moan into the mic, and depending on the pitch of my moan, the circuit snaps to its nearest resonant frequency. I am not touching the EQ knobs or anything else once I set this in motion. Control consists of my voice and the angle of the mic into the headphone cup, and perhaps most importantly, the ratio of my voice amplitude to the feedback amplitude. I need to overcome it in amplitude and also sustain my voice note long enough to train the mixer. Then I can shut up and listen. This dynamic should be evident in the recording.

Here are a few guidelines I find helpful to remember. Some are old, some are new.

1. Look for the non-linear transitions, even through they are often hard to control. They are the best.
2. If you run through an effect in a feedback path, play around with wet dry somewhere above 0% and below 100%. You'll likely find the effect kick in & out in a self-sustaining, cyclic way.
3. Use multiple feedback paths to modulate each other. That is essentially what happens in this recording, except that the second signal source is my voice, not a second feedback path. Note that I use it not only to modulate the signal immediately, but also change the sustaining resonant frequency of the path itself. (The idea actually came from something I read in a Murray Gel-Mann book on quantum systems about a year ago.)
4. As an aspect of 3, push the two sources near some non-linear limit without hitting it. Let them push each other over that limit.

I think that's it! Cool


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A Man and a Mixer are One.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Love all the examples guys and advice. Here is a picture of my final setup. It includes a Behringer MX2642A mixer, Korg QUAD FX X-Y pad, Korg KP3 for sampling and delays, Behringer V-Verb Pro REV2496 for multiple delays and reverberation, and finallya Behringer Ultramizer Pro DSP1424P for mainly limiter and Excitation purposes. I hard limit my signal to 0 dB as Dale requested that we use limiting in our setups.

A quick example of Entropy is attached for your listening enjoyment. First take, what the hell. Just for an example anyway. It was created using a grain shift, JET, and Phaser effect. For ambiance, there is messed up sample circulating around in my KP3 and mainly coming out of the right channel (not sure why but it was there so I used it thus more entropy ... hahah).

I have personally found that grain synthesis, delays (short, long, and regenerative) along with positive feedback techniques using with zero input mixing have produced the most interesting sounds in my studio over the last few weeks.

Oh PS:

I was also able to recreate my POD Racer sounds using a decimation, pitch shift, and tape delay effect. Took a bit to get that sound back considering the unpredictability of this type of performance modality.

See you all at EM 2013 next week.

Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: feedback tuned by voice pitch
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Acoustic Interloper wrote:
I sort of moan into the mic, and depending on the pitch of my moan, the circuit snaps to its nearest resonant frequency.

heh,. that's no longer zero input,. but very interesting nonetheless Very Happy
makes me wonder how it would sound if you create feedback using a talkbox singing

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some nice spicy meatballs in there, Bill.
State Machine wrote:

I have personally found that grain synthesis, delays (short, long, and regenerative) along with positive feedback techniques using with zero input mixing have produced the most interesting sounds in my studio over the last few weeks.

I, too, have found granular processing very useful in zero-input mixer. I like to use it in lots of other, places, too. And, I have borrowed your idea of snagging a sample on the fly, in this case for time & pitch shifting during the Engine part. The original sound source is the mixer.
Quote:
I was also able to recreate my POD Racer sounds using a decimation, pitch shift, and tape delay effect. Took a bit to get that sound back considering the unpredictability of this type of performance modality.

I concur with the unpredictability. This is a very non-deterministic instrument with non-linear probabilities at times. At its best times, even!

See you soon Very Happy

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: feedback tuned by voice pitch
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PHOBoS wrote:
Acoustic Interloper wrote:
I sort of moan into the mic, and depending on the pitch of my moan, the circuit snaps to its nearest resonant frequency.

heh,. that's no longer zero input,. but very interesting nonetheless Very Happy

Yeah, I know.

"Can you play zero-input mixer?"

"No, but if you moan a few bars, I can fake it."

I'm keeping you in mind for the zero-input-mixer-ninjam-collab planetarium gig at some point in the future, PHOBoS. I haven't forgotten Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Í have to admit, though I have read about the ZIM over the year(s) and even chatted with with some participants in the ZIM performance at EM-2012, I have not been able to wrap my head around it.

Well, I just looked at my SGX Nitro and wondered if I can somehow turn that into a ZIM. If I took the out and ran it into the in and use midi to control the FX--assuming it works to create controllable audio--would that qualify as a ZIM? If not, could it be used as part of a ZIM? And if so, what else would I need?

(Or would this be a zero-input FX processor (ZIFXP)?)

Steve
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicMan11712 wrote:
Well, I just looked at my SGX Nitro and wondered if I can somehow turn that into a ZIM. If I took the out and ran it into the in and use midi to control the FX--assuming it works to create controllable audio--would that qualify as a ZIM? If not, could it be used as part of a ZIM? And if so, what else would I need?

(Or would this be a zero-input FX processor (ZIFXP)?)

Steve

Sounds like a ZIM to me, Dr. Steve Very Happy

I've never looked at a SGX Nitro before, but running an out to an in with FX in that path does the job. I think the only advantage to a "mixer" per se is you have lots of buses for various signal paths. The 3 paths I mention above include 2 stereo for a total of 5 looping (or loopy) signal paths, including the ability to cross-pan (or not) by varying degrees on stereo channels, which is useful for generating beat signals & some various modulations of one side by the other.

None of that is essential. Feedback + FX does the job.

By the way, today I can't get that voice thing working at all, but I have found that my SM86's cardioid pickup pattern does an even better (because more reliable) job of tuning the circuit. Bending that cardioid's relationship to the headphone/cup in the path tunes the circuit. That's my main instrument for VOICES as of last night.

I am thinking of having a workshop on this business next year. Too much to do already in 2013!

See you soon. surprise


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SM86 cardioid
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Acoustic Interloper wrote:
Sounds like a ZIM to me, Dr. Steve Very Happy

I've never looked at a SGX Nitro before, but running an out to an in with FX in that path does the job. I think the only advantage to a "mixer" per se is you have lots of buses for various signal paths. The 3 paths I mention above include 2 stereo for a total of 5 looping (or loopy) signal paths, including the ability to cross-pan (or not) by varying degrees on stereo channels, which is useful for generating beat signals & some various modulations of one side by the other.

None of that is essential. Feedback + FX does the job.

Thanks for the thoughts, Dale. If I make it down, maybe I will bring the SGX Nitro. If not, I might wait until your workshop next year and play around with it at home in the meanwhile.
Steve
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: zero-input mixer planning for electro-music 2013
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Posted here is EMZIM2013, the Zero-Input Mixer Collaboration from electro-music 2013.

Performers

Jeremy DePrisco
Joo Won Park
Dale Parson (coordinator)
Bill Manganaro
Adam Holquist

It was well received Cool

Much thanks to Steve Mokris for video accompaniment and Howard Mangrum for doing sound! thanks Also much thanks to Jez Creek for recording everything!

Bill, Steve Mokris and I started planning next year. The plan is to have a workshop on Saturday afternoon, with the electro-music 2014 ZIM Orchestra to perform on Sunday morning at 11. Based on discussion with Steve regarding the 2012 Bent Orchestra, if we have a lot of performers, we will require participants to bring desktop speakers instead of using the PA. Bent Orchestra performers had trouble hearing themselves in the mix.

Bill & I will lead the workshop, and I will conduct the orchestra. We will have 4 movements (as this year), with 2 to 4 distinct sections of the orchestra (according to timbre / role) that we will sort out Saturday. I would prefer not to limit number of participants. Instead, I will conduct with gusto Uncle Joe Stalin We will mic the room with one or more omnis for recording and streaming. We have other plans not to be discussed yet.

I was afraid that I would not be able to hear myself in the mix and know what I was actually doing, but it was fine. When I listen back to this, I am often not sure, but that's as it should be. With my hand on a control at performance time, I could feel and hear the action; I knew which sounds I was making. When I listen now, there is no need to know. I like that. well done

With a lot of performers that would be more of a problem, especially if the composition and orchestra lack structure. I'm used to imposing structure on chaos. I teach college! Uncle Joe Stalin Ohm... Uncle Joe Stalin Ohm... Uncle Joe Stalin Ohm... Uncle Joe Stalin

Maybe the PA would be OK. Actually, Surround Sound would help. We could have 5 sections of the orchestra. Hmmm.

I don't think we need a new planning thread, will keep posting here. I like seeing the history.

Gotta go grade some Photoshop assignments now . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: zero-input mixer planning for electro-music 2013
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Acoustic Interloper wrote:
Also much thanks to Jez Creek for recording everything!


Thanks dale, but I can't take credit for recording everything, I just brought a couple of recorders, plugged them in and asked the guys doing sound to use them Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject:
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modulator_esp wrote:
Acoustic Interloper wrote:
Also much thanks to Jez Creek for recording everything!


Thanks dale, but I can't take credit for recording everything, I just brought a couple of recorders, plugged them in and asked the guys doing sound to use them Smile

Ah, but having been one of the guys doing sound, I must say that hitting that record button twice per performance was the easiest part of the job Very Happy Take care, Jez.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:46 pm    Post subject:
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Acoustic Interloper wrote:
I was afraid that I would not be able to hear myself in the mix and know what I was actually doing, but it was fine. When I listen back to this, I am often not sure, but that's as it should be.


I know that feeling. I gave it a listen back yesterday, and there are definitely places in the recording where what I did sort of sinks into the mix, but then other places where I can go 'ahh, THAT'S me'. Wink

Thanks again for organizing this, Dale. Was great fun, and glad I got to take part.

adh

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You are very welcome, Adam. It was a treat!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: new ZIM piece Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi community,
Here's my newest no-input mixing board piece. It's called October 1402.
https://soundcloud.com/joowon/october

I was very lucky to have this piece featured in disquiet.com.
http://disquiet.com/2013/10/19/joowonpark/

Thanks for listening!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: new ZIM piece Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

joowon wrote:
October 1402


Nice one!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JOOWON......

Really like the piece Cool Thanks for sharing that with us.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice metallic timbre going on in the early part of the piece, Joo Won. Also a squeaky chalk board sound going on in places Very Happy
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