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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Does anyone plan to release Haible PCB's in the future?
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KnobHell



Joined: Jan 28, 2012
Posts: 58
Location: SLC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

After posting my last message I had an additional thought...

How about getting the art work to EM to produce boards? EM represents the community, in a sense represents Jurgen. Just as Klee and MPS boards are made to benifit the community.

As to Jurgen's children, I would suggest that people who buy boards from EM also donate to Jurgen's legacy. I am not suggesting anything formal, maybe just using a pay pal address. This would not be money going to his family by selling a product, it would be gifts from "random" people.

I think as a community we are the ones that need to step up. When governments have the interests of the "common good" in mind, they have no ones interest in mind.

Thoughts?

len
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sonicwarrior



Joined: Dec 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Another kind of "aging" of JHs PCBs Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Harry_W wrote:
the PCBs will be virtually worthless, or if there are replacements possible


Many discontinued parts are still available but expensive. Please don't throw PCBs away because of that.
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elmegil



Joined: Mar 20, 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is there really a good way to judge who will make them for their own use or not? Hasn't that issue been at the root of several high profile "fights" in the synth communities?
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Harry_W



Joined: Dec 01, 2011
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Location: Erlangen/Germany

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@patricef:
You are right with your apples comparison; but usually a heritage doesn't consist of perishable goods. Maybe a cellar full of old wine, at most Wink

@All others:

I have no clue where the layouts are. I have no access to Juergen's PC either, maybe there they are. I would give them to e-m with pleasure, and I am sure, also with the consent of Haible family. They should be present at the board manufacturer as herber files, or am I wrong?

I only have a pile of Juergen's folders full of hand-made and automated drawings and specifications of his projects (planned and finished ones). All written technical documentation seems to be on my side, but no data files, CDs or whatever.

@elmegil:
I see no way to prevent people here from doing what they would like to do. I can even understand them becoming impatient. What they do depends on their own conscience.

Best regards,
Harry_W
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Which was my point.

I don't think we can make the statement that we / you are just "sending them to those who are going to build one for their own use." as KnobHell suggested. They are either freely available (to use or abuse) or they are not. The vast majority of us here want all benefit from the legacy, including the PCBs and circuits, to go to Jürgen's family. But it only takes a couple bad apples to decide they don't care to make for bad feelings and possibly bad outcomes all around. We have seen this with other designers, including relatively recently with Ian Fritz.

That said, I do like KnobHell's suggestion about EM boards and donations to Jürgen's family.....
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KnobHell



Joined: Jan 28, 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, being at a standstill on the Gerber files might I suggest this:

1. Create a Jurgen Haible restoration fund. Minimum contribution is $100

2. Get high resolution photos of the front and back of every board people are interested in. Prioritize by demand on which boards will be created first.

3. Assemble volunteer teams to reverse engineer boards from the photos.

4. Use some of the funds to produce the prototypes.

5. Testers pay for the components from their own pocket, but can keep the completed board.

Priority of the testers pool come first from those who contributed to the restoration fund.

6. Remaining funds go to Jurgen's children. And of course some percentage of the funds from future sales.

##############################################

I commit will commit the first $250 to the project.

I am willing to reverse engineer boards from photos, or review. I use ExpressPCB, since that does not produce Gerber files I don't know if that is acceptable. Although they do offer a production service.

I can build test boards, but mainly want to do so on the boards I am ultimately interested in owning. (Frequency shifter and possible a living vco.)

I don't want to be in the overall management of the project or funds.

Len
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KnobHell



Joined: Jan 28, 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Forgot to add...

EM holds the IP that is produced.

len
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samuraipizzacat29



Joined: Mar 15, 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll lend a kicad helping hand.....
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KnobHell



Joined: Jan 28, 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know that this will ever go anywhere. I posted this over at Muffs and got a hell of a thrashing. For some reason the consensus was to wait until the German gov settles the estate, or hell freezes over. (I'd bet on the later)

Twisted Evil

len
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sonicwarrior



Joined: Dec 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe a solution would be to layout completely new PCBs with somewhat different features. Like a Tau Phaser that is able to take DIP14 or SO-14 THAT 300 chips or SOIC-14 LM3046 instead of the discontinued DIP8 SSM2210 or similar (LM394, MAT02, ?) or DIP14 CA3046. All three are available @ Mouser. Plus I would design it as a module and include power connector footprints for MOTM and Eurorack. And I would try to make it more Eurorack compatible maybe by splitting it into two boards or something like that.

On the other side this may lead to think the original PCBs are somewhat obsolete.

But there are still some unfinished projects without any PCB. Why not start there?
Like the Vocoder or the Transient Gate.
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patricef



Joined: Sep 07, 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would it be possible to make a (big) pedal version ? Like, an upgraded version of the Boss DC2.
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sylvainmoreau



Joined: Feb 19, 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

flag for a triple chorus pcb (already bought panel and parts !)
and other stuff to .. as soon as this situation ends of course :p

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synthcube



Joined: Dec 21, 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is a perfect scenario for the next great synth scam unless someone does some reasonable due diligence.

is there any remaining physical stock of JH PCBS? If so, who has custodial care? what proof exists of their existence?

the JH gerber files reside with his PCB fabrication house. who has legal rights to those production files? what does the fabrication house have to say?

is there any documentation about JH's wishes W/R/T his physical equipment & tools, the IP associated with his designs, and physical PCBs (if any remain?)

harryw has posted here often representing 'the family'. Does anyone in JH close circle of collaboraters recognize harryw? why is harryw asking questions about the availability of rare parts? given the potential commercial value, would not a prudent estate attorney communicate to this audience of potential buyers/investors about the status?

german probate courts are a matter of public record, no? could not a reasonably local synth enthusiast provide some documentation about the status of things?

i dont know... seems like an urban myth in the making, which is sad for all the hard work JH did on our behalf.

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aladan



Joined: Aug 13, 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

synthcube wrote:
this is a perfect scenario for the next great synth scam unless someone does some reasonable due diligence.

is there any remaining physical stock of JH PCBS? If so, who has custodial care? what proof exists of their existence?

the JH gerber files reside with his PCB fabrication house. who has legal rights to those production files? what does the fabrication house have to say?

is there any documentation about JH's wishes W/R/T his physical equipment & tools, the IP associated with his designs, and physical PCBs (if any remain?)

harryw has posted here often representing 'the family'. Does anyone in JH close circle of collaboraters recognize harryw? why is harryw asking questions about the availability of rare parts? given the potential commercial value, would not a prudent estate attorney communicate to this audience of potential buyers/investors about the status?

german probate courts are a matter of public record, no? could not a reasonably local synth enthusiast provide some documentation about the status of things?

i dont know... seems like an urban myth in the making, which is sad for all the hard work JH did on our behalf.


While you might be right, I think the likelihood of that is very very low. Nearly two years down the track and there has been no "scam" to date - great or otherwise. There must be some pretty long-term planning going on if there is one coming. I've had some interesting (private) email discussions with Harry_W and he's been polite, intelligent, compassionate and come across as open and honest.

As to his questions and posts, they all ring true based on what I've read online in this forum. The issue of rare parts and boards becoming unusable in time was raised by someone else, not him. Make sure you read everything he's written in all the threads (there are about three or four of them that are relevant that I know of); I think you'll find your answers there. I really don't think there's any cause for alarm or concern, just disappointment that some of the brightest parts of Jurgen's life's work have become inaccessible to many of us.

Cheers,
A.
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synthcube



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We agree on most points...
We ve also been communicating with Harryw and have no reason to doubt or suspect... Other than, this analogue synth space seems to have more than a fair share of good intentions, gone bad.
We really, really, hope that this sorts out and JH work is available again, with due benefit to those he would have wanted to benefit.
Just lets please, as a community, do our homework and not let our wishes cloud our good judgement.

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sonicwarrior



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Btw. here is a statement oldcrow posted @Muffs:

oldcrow wrote:
Jurgen and I discussed this about 15 years ago. Generally, his take was if he offered schematics and construction tips on a public web site or mailing list, forum, etc. They were "open source hardware" and free to build for non-commercial purposes. He did not mind if PC boards were made to enable others to make his designs as long as it was in the spirit of DIY, that is, intended for hobbyists and musicians to explore some nifty hardware, not for a company to start selling finished products.

I do indeed have a little bit of JH design in the crOwBX, and I make no secret of it. His design core is an inverse-parallel 2-quadrant multiplier, inspired by Doug Curtis' CEM3310 and some suggestions by Joachim Verghese. The CEM3310, from which JH took his design goals, is at the core a 2-quadrant multiplier. The OBX voice cards used CEM3310s, so building a discrete equivalent circuit to act like a CEM3310 is invariably going to use the same approach. JH did his in mostly all transistors, and he had a hold function like Korg MS EGs. I used more traditional elements like a 555 and a 4052, but if you strip away all the front end stuff you are left with a very basic expo converter that just happens to have another expo pair tacked on. The ingenuity is in understanding one pair is reverse-biased while the other is active, which is why it works in the first place.

My point here is it is like putting a steering wheel on a car or a multi-touch screen on a smart phone: it is the functional path of choice in the design.

I also use Tom Wiltshire's PIC code for the noise generator, which again I make no secret of. Tom knows. :sb:

If logicgate is making boards for himself and a parcel of DIYers, JH would have approved. He wanted his stuff out there in just this sort of way. For himself, he tended to make one of something and move on, because to him design and verifying the design was the allure. It is why his legacy site is filled with all sorts of awesome stuff. :guinness:

--Crow
/**/

filterstein wrote:
Difficult subject.
All the roland clone stuff, the buchla en serges.
If someone claims he has permission, who can verify?
Have you noticed that the envelopes of the crowbx are based on jurgens drawings?
As far as i know he had no problem with personal use.
And in europe we have fair use rights.


Source: http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/post-1304380.html#1304380

Btw. this talk about giving % of the money to the children:
We are talking about small quantities of PCBs, not big money. Let's say 1 € per PCB are devoted to that in a batch of 50 that's only 50 €. This will never feed the children and I don't think we are responsible for that plus the costs of an extra bank account would eat up most of that money. And keep in mind that in Germany there is a social security system so donating to Caritas or something similar will do more good than that anyway.
In Cologne we have Romanians living in the city woods/parks and other homeless persons and winter is coming. I think those people are in more need for help and I'm pretty sure you'll find these kinds of people in every city.
You don't need fund-raising PCB's to help people if you really are that social and why should the kids of a DIY icon be treated better than other kids who are in more need for help?
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tojpeters



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the value of the remaining stock is being wildly overestimated. In a situation like this one's belongings are only worth what they can be sold for in a reasonable amount of time. Unless his family wants to be in the selling pcbs business they would have to be sold in one lot to someone who DOES want to sell boards. And that person would be entitled to a profit for the effort and investment. And this person would have to have the capitol available to buy at the same moment the boards come up for sale. So imagine the boards going on ebay. After a couple weeks, what would be the winning bid? That is what the boards are worth. Not trying to harsh anyone's buzz or put a rat in your face-cage, but I think this may be no big deal. If the real deal stuff ever does come up for sale hopefully a bride chamber/synthcube/ect. style company will buy them up and they will sell just fine, even if some clone runs have been done. Plenty of Moog style vcf clones out there-but I suspect if Moog starting selling a pcb they would sell fast.
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sonicwarrior



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

True and interesting points, didn't thought about that.
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patricef



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is there anyone from this board in contact with the family regarding Jürgen's legacy ?
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sduck



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Harry_W is, and has posted here several times about this. See above.
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latigid on



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am wondering about the state of JH's hard disks; who owns them and would they grant access?
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sonicwarrior wrote

Quote:
We are talking about small quantities of PCBs, not big money. Let's say 1 € per PCB are devoted to that in a batch of 50 that's only 50 €.

harryw wrote
Quote:
I for myself feel very sorry that >2000 PCBs are rotting in my cellar instead of giving you some joy in music making...


not what i would call a small quantity and i dont get the assertion of 1 euro per board , they are worth far more than that even as a bulk purchase
jurgen sold his boards for 25 euro each and everyone gladly paid it, these boards are wholly owned by the estate , yes in a bulk buy they would be worth considerably less per board but it should still add up to be a sizeable amount that should go to the family.

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sonicwarrior



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We are talking about making new batches not how Jürgen was handling them and how many are now stuck in unobtainium mode.

If I would re-make a PCB I would only make a 50 piece batch.

The 1 Euro was a suggestion for an amount of money that would go to the family per PCB. Do I write such bad English?
How could someone mistake that to be the price for a big double sided PCB? Confused
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
If I would re-make a PCB I would only make a 50 piece batch.

my mistake, i apologise
your english is fine, my understanding was not.

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seanpark



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't think the concern is "feeding the children" but showing respect for Haible's legacy, that all the time and energy he spent on SDIY is appreciated by an international community.

Sharing self-made design files as logicgate has over at muff is perfectly respectful IMHO. Who among us could possibly lay out a Vocoder PCB from the schems, though Shocked ??
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