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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
The Sync Thync (now with Stripboard layouts)
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PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: The Sync Thync (now with Stripboard layouts)
Subject description: S&H + AND, useful for rhythmic patterns
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Something simple that actually came from a bigger circuit I was testing. It's a bit of a cross between an AND gate an a S&H made with 2 flip flops
(but you could easily add more). When the CLK input goes high it samples whatever data is at the A/B inputs and this appears at the A/B outputs as
long as the CLK stays high. When the CLK is low the outputs are low. It's nice for creating rhythmic, somewhat random, patterns by connecting some
oscillators to the A/B inputs and an LFO to the CLK.

The Sync Thync, you know you want (at least) one! Wink


Sync Thync block logo.gif
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Sync Thync block logo.gif



PHOBoS - Sync Thync.gif
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PHOBoS - Sync Thync.gif



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Last edited by PHOBoS on Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:55 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you can also use it to do this Cool


JabberThync.mp3
 Description:
Sync Thync demo

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 Filename:  JabberThync.mp3
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DUBmatze



Joined: Feb 18, 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

when the CLK input is High is the R Pin on the 4013 High or low? (i plan a one channel version of this, so i can use a 4049 or 4050 i think for the Reset)

i think this is a cool thing with one of my lunetta modules. I build a "pattern" generator from a 4017 and a AND with some 4050 Buffers with 4 outputs:
A 1-1-0-0
B 0-0-1-1
C 1-0-1-0
D 0-1-0-1

think this is a cool Source to Trigger/clock this.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DUBmatze wrote:
when the CLK input is High is the R Pin on the 4013 High or low? (i plan a one channel version of this, so i can use a 4049 or 4050 i think for the Reset)

R(eset) is low when CLK is high and the other way around. It'll probably work with a 4049 but you'll have to test it. When I first experimented with
it I had the clock directly connected (without the capacitor and resistors to create a pulse) but that didn't work, so keep that part in.

Quote:


i think this is a cool thing with one of my lunetta modules. I build a "pattern" generator from a 4017 and a AND with some 4050 Buffers with 4 outputs:
A 1-1-0-0
B 0-0-1-1
C 1-0-1-0
D 0-1-0-1

think this is a cool Source to Trigger/clock this.

I did a test using 2 LFO's on the A/B inputs and it's possible to get repeating patterns but there is usually some drifting which will cause it to change.
It will always be in sync though Wink

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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: The Sync Thync Stripboard layouts Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know some of you like stripboard so here are 2 layouts. One with the main circuit, the other is an extension board for 2 more in/outs.
It can be added to the same PCB that's used for the main board if you cut some tracks in between (V+, V-, CLK lnk and RST lnk line up).
And you should be able to add more than one extension board if you like, although I haven't tested this. Cool

note: don't cut the track between pins 7,8 of IC1


The Sync Thync - main (stripboard).gif
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Sync Thync stripboard layout (main)
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The Sync Thync - main (stripboard).gif



The Sync Thync - ext (stripboard).gif
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Sync Thync stripboard layout (extension)
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The Sync Thync - ext (stripboard).gif



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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So this is what it would look like if you put both on one piece of stripboard.


The Sync Thync - extended (stripboard).gif
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Sync Thync extended stripboard layout
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The Sync Thync - extended (stripboard).gif



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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had a bit of stripboard that was just the right size Laughing so I just build the extended version and i can confirm that the layout is correct.
Here's a short demo with 4 teacandle LED's connected to the A/B/C/D inputs of the Sync Thync, clocked by an LFO. And the outputs of the Sync
Thync connected to an R2R which is connected to a VCO.


teacandle sequence Thync.mp3
 Description:
teacandle sequencer Thync demo

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 Filename:  teacandle sequence Thync.mp3
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Sync Thync build pics Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I put it in a plastic enclosure and added some switches. The toggle switches turn the input signal on/off and when it's off the output stay low. By adding
them to the inputs, switching will always be in sync with the clock. The pushbuttons force a high signal on the data inputs, so when pressed the
output will be the same as the CLK input (useful for drumrolls/bursts).


Sync Thync logo.png
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Sync Thync logo
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Sync Thync logo.png



PHOBoS - Sync Thync (Extended).gif
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Sync Thync (Extended) with extra switches.
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PHOBoS - Sync Thync (Extended).gif



Sync Thync - 01.jpg
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Sync Thync
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Sync Thync - 01.jpg



Sync Thync - 02.jpg
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Sync Thync
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Sync Thync - 02.jpg



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trav



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent build, as always!
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks trav Very Happy
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DUBmatze



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey phobos, hey lunettaheads
i was thinking a lot about this thing. but i dont have any flipflops at home. so i read a lot about flipflops and breadboardet a bit.
this is the result. The SYNC THYNC LITE:
(sorry for stealing the name Phobos... but a big TY for sharing the sync thync)
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's great ! Very Happy
And I don't mind if you use the name, except that I just did a simulation and it doesn't behave like a Sync Thync, so that might cause some
confusion. But it did made me wonder if it would be possible using NAND gates so I tried some different configurations and got something that
works. However it uses 5 NAND gates (or 4 and 1 inverter) and that only gives you one input/output and clock and you can't use any of the gates if
you want to add another one.

Now since you read about flipflops you might have found that you can also use NOR gates instead of NAND gates which gives you a flip flop that
behaves slightly different. So I tried that and I thought I just had it working using your schematic, but it's still not the same (you can try it by
swapping the chips if you have some NOR's and used sockets). I do have something working with NOR gates but it needs 5 gates again, although in
this circuit 2 are used as inverters.

maybe I can come up with something, it's a nice challenge Wink

o and I'm not sure if you can use those gates in parallel, I know it works for some but I have no idea about the CD4093. It might work but maybe
the chip isn't happy with it. Glad to see it inspired you though Very Happy

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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Sync Thync NAND/NOR version Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here are the schematics for those NAND and NOR versions that seem to work.
At least in simulation, I haven't breadboarded it.


PHOBoS - Sync Thync NAND NOR.gif
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Sync Thync NAND/NOR versions
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PHOBoS - Sync Thync NAND NOR.gif



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm .. that's strange ... I would have expected more symmetry between the nor and nand versions ... yet the nand one has an extra feedback loop .. prolly means that there are some more possible alternatives so maybe even a better optimized one Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Hmm .. that's strange ... I would have expected more symmetry between the nor and nand versions ... yet the nand one has an extra feedback loop .. prolly means that there are some more possible alternatives so maybe even a better optimized one Cool


yep that's what I was thinking, it kinda surprised me that I didn't need the feedback loop for the NOR. But as long as I haven't really tested it I 'm not
sure if either version will work.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The thing is that

NOT ( A AND B) = ( NOT A) OR ( NOT B)

De Morgan's laws .. unfortunately the Wiki entry has a bit of a formal notation for it ... but De Morgan is the the thing, its a handy thing for optimizing stuff.

Another thing to look into is Quine McClusky

Anyway .. that NOT ( A AND B) = ( NOT A) OR ( NOT B) thing hints at symmetries to be expected .. basically it states that a positive logic circuit with ANDs is equivalent to a negative logic circuit with all the ANDs replaced with ORs ( so you need inverters on all in and outs to make it the same).

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hehe,
hardcore logic ... Wink

Building the same flipflops like u uses in the orginal (with clk in) are 4 NANDs and 2 Inverters. so when i try to build a 4 Channel version i need: 4* 4093 and and a 4049. To big for me that day ... Wink


PHOBoS wrote:
That's great ! Very Happy
And I don't mind if you use the name, except that I just did a simulation and it doesn't behave like a Sync Thync, so that might cause some
confusion
yes its just a ligth version.
oO


PHOBoS wrote:
(you can try it by swapping the chips if you have some NOR's and used sockets)
ah grr i soilder them direct to the board..
it looks like that:
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


PHOBoS wrote:
o and I'm not sure if you can use those gates in parallel, I know it works for some but I have no idea about the CD4093. It might work but maybe
the chip isn't happy with it.
i do that often, i use 40106, 4049, 4050, 4093 in parallel when i have to drive more than some other gates like a complete chip or so...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for the links jan. Very Happy I'm familiar with some of it but not all.
so using NOT ( A AND B) = ( NOT A) OR ( NOT B) I changed the circuit with the feedback loop to a configuration using NOR's. Seems to work in
simulation but you need an extra gate. However it has 2 inverters on the inputs so you could use transistors and you would only need to do that
once for the CLK, but still not very ideal. Maybe it can be done with less gates adding a different gate (like XOR or mixing NAND & NOR gates).

I also converted the other circuit to NAND gates but that doesn't seem to work. Maybe that tells me that the NOR version doesn't actually work
either, but I guess I won't know unless I breadboard it sometime.


PHOBoS - Sync Thync NAND NOR 1.gif
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For the NAND version ... are the two outputs of the flip flop not inverse to each other? if so the output inverter would not be needed.

And something likewise for the NOR version then.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

if you have a flip flop in one package than that is indeed so as far as I know (Q and /Q are just inverted).
But when using NAND or NOR gates both outputs can be the same (1 for NAND, 0 for NOR) .

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