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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
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elmegil
Joined: Mar 20, 2012 Posts: 2177 Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject:
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Thankfully there seems to be a lot less of that here; on the other hand, possibly because there's a lot less of everything here :/ |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010 Posts: 5591 Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 705
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:57 am Post subject:
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A good read, thanks for sharing. I find this kind of stuff generally depressing. _________________ Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music |
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:15 am Post subject:
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Note that there was a rebuttal posted by a female user of the forum in the comments section:
Quote: | Juliana Jaeger says:
April 19, 2014 at 11:11 pm
Myself being a female user of Muff Wiggler, all I can say is that misogyny and sexism within the modular synthesizer community is mostly in the imagination of the beholder, particularly if that beholder cherry-picks content out of context for the sole sake of having something over which to be irritated. |
_________________ Current and recent work on Soundcloud
Some old stuff on VIRB |
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elmegil
Joined: Mar 20, 2012 Posts: 2177 Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:05 am Post subject:
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If people really want to debate the situation, there are ample opportunities to do that over at Muff's.
I will point out though that there are women who publicly stand up and claim the USA has no problem with misogyny in our public sphere as well. Doesn't make it so.
I think that what's there at Muff's is a reflection of "Internet Culture" as well as the broader social issues of the day. I also think Muff's is quite exemplary in being LESS of a mirror of those problems than MANY boards out there. But that doesn't mean there's not a current there too--quite the opposite, it would be amazing if it were not. |
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Skrog Productions
Joined: Jan 07, 2009 Posts: 1196 Location: Scottish Borders
Audio files: 155
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:43 pm Post subject:
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hmmmm, I was disappointed .
With the magazines name , I was expecting to view pretty, 8 - 10 denier pastel shade blue nylon , preferably with a descrete all over pattern of dots or bows , but instead there was just a human that did not understand V=I R & ohms laws associated equations.
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject:
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This forum, the Fiddle Forum, and the one for Steve Albini's studio (forgot the name) are the three least sexist I've seen. People here seem to be cool, so I guess that's the reason - yes there's low foot traffic but signal quality is high.
Fiddle Forum has so many female users anybody wanting to be sexist would not survive long there.
The last one, well it's brutally self-policing when it needs to be. _________________ Current and recent work on Soundcloud
Some old stuff on VIRB |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject:
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Thanks for posting that link. I replied on that blog, directing the author to check out our forum, where everyone is welcome and where we are actively trying to promote a diverse community.
BTW, I'm also a member at Muff's, and he is a member here. We cooperate and support each other. The community is bigger that a single forum - we all know that. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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LFLab
Joined: Dec 17, 2009 Posts: 497 Location: Rosmalen, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am Post subject:
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Lousy article IMHO, sexism is there if you really want it to be, but in general, I think the muffwiggler forum is A LOT more female friendly than forums on any number of other topics, gaming, off roading, hunting.
I just wonder why the Muffwiggler forum got singled out. |
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elmegil
Joined: Mar 20, 2012 Posts: 2177 Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:06 am Post subject:
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Maybe because it was the forum being looked at? Because the author had a specific interest in the topic?
I'm sorry but the "we're better than other places" argument, while quite obviously TRUE, doesn't really change or eliminate the sexism that's there.
"But your honor, it was only a little assault and battery, it's not like I murdered anyone, can you just let me go free?"
Not quite clear what the point is in dragging up this topic 8 months later either. Muff's is down, so you have to find something to complain about? |
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LFLab
Joined: Dec 17, 2009 Posts: 497 Location: Rosmalen, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:46 am Post subject:
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elmegil wrote: | Muff's is down, so you have to find something to complain about? |
Not at all, it's just that I came across the article a few days ago, and remembered the discussion on Muffs. |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:17 pm Post subject:
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Some forums don't like resurrecting old threads. It's OK here, for some reason it's appreciated by some of us. Sometimes it's interesting to get new perspectives after some time has passed.
I was concerned to hear the Muff's was down, but I just checked and it's not. Good news... _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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AlanP
Joined: Mar 11, 2014 Posts: 746 Location: New Zealand
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:27 pm Post subject:
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They've had a major overhaul, everything is a lot zippier there now. |
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MusicMan11712
Joined: Aug 08, 2009 Posts: 1082 Location: Out scouting . . .
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:14 am Post subject:
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[msg deleted at the request of the author] Last edited by MusicMan11712 on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject:
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To be fair, Muff is the name of a pet cat that the forum was named after. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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Demi Jon
Joined: May 23, 2015 Posts: 4 Location: Otepoti, Te Wai Pounamu
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject:
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The discussion continues. In a thread titled 'Women who (should) modular', in which posters were encouraged to list female artists who they'd like to hear on modular synths, the thread descended over the course of only one page into feminist-baiting, objectification, and masturbation jokes.
One of the female posters got very angry about it, and started another thread in which she vented about her disgust at the treatment of women on the previous thread.
While some folks supported her, there was a fair amount of 'if you can't take a joke'/'thin skin' -type dismissiveness. The site-owner initially showed concern, but this was actioned by setting up a 'name and shame' thread for outright intimidation and abuse. While this is perhaps a good step, it does nothing to acknowledge the more nebulous general vibe of the forum, which is potentially unwelcoming/unsafe-feeling. The unsavoury aspects of this environment are more the result of a general atmosphere of male privilege, and is therefore harder to codify into abuse or intimidation (i.e., one person acting threatening vs a bunch of guys talking about hot chicks and masturbation). This complaint thread was finally locked after a meltdown from the site owner when I called him on referring to those of us on the feminist side as 'fascists' (for the second time -- though when I tried to find the first thread in which he dropped that choice insult, I saw that that entire thread had been deleted).
It's a shame that every time this issue has come up, it ends with female forum members leaving in disgust, the mods being dismissive (though some seemingly less so) and the site owner feeling threatened and responding aggressively. It's been coming up more frequently though, so hopefully it will result in change. My hope is that they will institute a rough guideline in which posters are simply reminded to be courteous, considerate, polite and respectful.
(side note: mosc, the site is not named after the site-owner's cat. It's named after the Electro Harmonix 'Big Muff Pi' and 'Wiggler' guitar pedals) |
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elmegil
Joined: Mar 20, 2012 Posts: 2177 Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject:
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I'm so glad I've stopped reading so much on the site and spend more time talking to people on Facebook. I did see some idiot dismissively bringing up "SJWs" in a TOTALLY unrelated thread with zero context, so I ignored him. It's so tiresome, and I don't really understand how it is Mike doesn't get it. |
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Demi Jon
Joined: May 23, 2015 Posts: 4 Location: Otepoti, Te Wai Pounamu
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:14 pm Post subject:
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elmegil wrote: | I'm so glad I've stopped reading so much on the site... |
I'm undecided as to whether I should just back off, or keep advocating for change. As the site owner, Mike, has now called me an 'idiotic f***ing troll' and told me to 'f*** off', I'm not sure how well-received my attempts will be.
It was very heartening this morning to discover that electro-music has an entire 'Diversity in electro-music' subforum! |
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elmegil
Joined: Mar 20, 2012 Posts: 2177 Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:06 pm Post subject:
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It's clear that folks who think the status quo is just fine have Mike's ear and he's convinced that he's being attacked for no good reason. There are other people in the community who I have more respect for than Mike who seem similarly oblivious about gender issues, despite having close friends who advocate for feminism. Not sure what more could be done about that which would be productive.
Unless you're prepared to try to split away from Muff's and start something new (or try to drag more folks over here, though in the last big blow up with Nelson Baboon on this topic, I mentioned it being better here but didn't see a lot of migration), I can't see how you can do anything but back off or be banned. It's a lousy set of choices in any case. |
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AlanP
Joined: Mar 11, 2014 Posts: 746 Location: New Zealand
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:23 pm Post subject:
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John Gabriel's Greater Internet F***wad Theory at work, I guess. Plus some people have no brain-keyboard filters.
A forum with as many users as MW, you're always going to get idiots. |
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Demi Jon
Joined: May 23, 2015 Posts: 4 Location: Otepoti, Te Wai Pounamu
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 12:39 am Post subject:
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AlanP wrote: | A forum with as many users as MW, you're always going to get idiots. |
Definitely true. What's frustrating though, is that it's the site owner, one of his mods (who also works in the MW shop), and an inner circle of their high-posting mates who form a sort of 'don't-be-so-bloody-sensitive' firewall. |
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LFLab
Joined: Dec 17, 2009 Posts: 497 Location: Rosmalen, Netherlands
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 1:28 am Post subject:
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I just stick to the DIY section of the forum, works fine, much gentler atmosphere.
Do feel that the problem is made way bigger than it really is, topics like this are always used as coathangers for pseudo philosophical discussions and name calling.
I actually don't think that "brush it off" or "look elsewhere" is such a lousy choice, it actually works for the whole of the internet.
"A forum with as many users as MW, you're always going to get idiots."
This! |
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glow worm
Joined: Nov 05, 2008 Posts: 150 Location: Petts Wood, Kent, UK
Audio files: 16
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 8:57 am Post subject:
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elmegil wrote: | ...despite having close friends who advocate for feminism. |
I've not really spent any time in the MW forum and am not calling you out in particular, but I'd just like to ask the following question about 'feminism' and 'sexism', in the context of the wider debate...
Which 'feminism' are we talking about here, exactly?
Back in the late 1970s / early 1980s, as I was entering adulthood, feminists were telling us that women were mens' equals and in no way the 'weaker' sex. Having been raised with a somewhat more 'traditional' (shall we say?) view of womens' 'place' in society, this concept took a little getting used to, but I eventually accepted it and - I must say - have had my life enriched by it, especially in the workplace.
But now, 'feminism' tells us that women are 'vulnerable' and 'in need of protection', thus promoting the idea that they are somehow the 'weaker' sex - an idea which I had previously been led to believe was 'sexist'.
Then there was the twenty-something lady I was chatting with last year, who described herself as a 'neo-feminist'. When I asked what this meant, she replied, "It means I don't have a problem watching porn!"
And we both laughed. Together, as equals, we laughed.
So I'll ask again: Which 'feminism' are we talking about here, exactly?
I'm asking because I'm confused and because I'm starting to get fed up with feeling like I have to walk on bloody eggshells all the time, in case I cause 'offence' to someone and end up having my entire personality and life judged on the basis of a single remark.
Can someone please help me? _________________ It may stop, but it never ends. |
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elmegil
Joined: Mar 20, 2012 Posts: 2177 Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:50 am Post subject:
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There are plenty of other places on the net where you can ask that question if it's an honest one. This is the wrong forum for that discussion, and the way you have couched your question seems pretty loaded and likely to only lead to flame wars. You clearly are asking a lot more than for me to define my terms. |
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