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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
4516 Binary up/down counter
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Vanwonky



Joined: Jul 24, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: 4516 Binary up/down counter
Subject description: Getting a few weird issues
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Howdy Guys,

I tried breadboarding the 4516 (datasheet here) last night and got some very weird stuff happening. It may be nothing to do with the 4516 but maybe someone has experienced the same. The chip seemed to be reacting to the closeness of my hands / fingers to anything - the jumper wires, the IC itself, holding the breadboard, looking at it funny - you name it. I know stuff can go weird if inputs are not tied down so I did all and more with no difference!

Tried 3 different spots on the breadboard and another breadboard and batteries (9V) instead of my bench supply - nothing. Holding the positive pin wire really tightly made it work OK sort of but began to hurt after a while Sad .

The other breadboarded modules still operated as per normal.

Any clues here?

Cheers
Dave
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synaesthesia



Joined: May 27, 2014
Posts: 89
Location: Germany
Audio files: 33

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Weird. Every time something like this happened to me it was a missing connection for one of the control inputs (enable, reset, ...) or even a missing power supply line. You checked that already. Are the left and right half of the power supply rows connected? Maybe one of the patch cables is broken.
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Vanwonky



Joined: Jul 24, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm.. I will check those jumper wires tonight - never know. Yes left / right power was all good.

synaesthesia wrote:
Weird. Every time something like this happened to me it was a missing connection for one of the control inputs (enable, reset, ...) or even a missing power supply line. You checked that already. Are the left and right half of the power supply rows connected? Maybe one of the patch cables is broken.
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JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 878
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

remember that you have to connect every input on a cmos IC or the above mentioned glitches will happen.
A pull down or pull up resistor is required sometimes if you intend to use the input, but most of the time simply connecting the input directly to ground or +V will do.

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Vanwonky



Joined: Jul 24, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gave it another go but reckon my 4516 has bombed out. I was at least getting it to count last night depending what my hands were touching but now - zippo - inputs grounded or not. Will get another ASAP and try again.
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Vanwonky



Joined: Jul 24, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: "Lunetta for Absolute Twits"
Subject description: As above.
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Joy! OK - got it cranking. More fodder for my up and coming book "Lunetta for Absolute Twits"! Firstly I stripped my breadboard back to nothing - removing all other chips (I usually leave on after trying something out while space allows) and all wire pins connecting power to those chips and many more I still had in place. I am not saying this was the cure but maybe it didn't help the 'antenna' effect I was getting with my body parts.

Part two and more importantly, I connected every pin (except 7 - the carry out) to something. Now I had almost done that before except for the Enable pin 5 and the Reset 9. I was getting confused (as a newb) between my ones and zeros + and - so thought they could stay unconnected.

So a description like "DIRECTION 0=Down, 1=Up" means you have to connect to negative for down at least and not just leave it unconnected for "0". Is this right? Rolling Eyes Happy to look like a dork if someone else doesn't have to waste hours with the same!

Cheers
Dave

PS: Oh oh! Synaesthesia said in his post - "Every time something like this happened to me it was a missing connection for one of the control inputs (enable, reset, ...)" Embarassed
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rumblin_cynth_rampo



Joined: Nov 15, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Cardiff, Caerdydd, UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: "Lunetta for Absolute Twits"
Subject description: As above.
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Vanwonky wrote:
J

So a description like "DIRECTION 0=Down, 1=Up" means you have to connect to negative for down at least and not just leave it unconnected for "0". Is this right? Rolling Eyes Happy to look like a dork if someone else doesn't have to waste hours with the same!



Yup you got it. CMOS can be weird if you don't tie the inputs to 0 or 1 Like your up/down pin for example. When you power it up it may see the state you are looking for on that input, but for some random reason it the chip may just decided while working "hey fooled this sucker time to go to the opposite state", and you spend a chunk of your life trying to track the problem down. They are little buggers if you dont tie em down or up.

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Vanwonky



Joined: Jul 24, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: "Lunetta for Absolute Twits"
Subject description: As above.
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Right - from now on everything gets tied down first and then I subtract from there! Wink

rumblin_cynth_rampo wrote:


Yup you got it. CMOS can be weird if you don't tie the inputs to 0 or 1 Like your up/down pin for example. When you power it up it may see the state you are looking for on that input, but for some random reason it the chip may just decided while working "hey fooled this sucker time to go to the opposite state", and you spend a chunk of your life trying to track the problem down. They are little buggers if you dont tie em down or up.
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Vanwonky



Joined: Jul 24, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And here is part of my problem. 4 hours trying to get it too work and 4 hours plus just playing with the new module instead of just getting it onto some veroboard! The 4516 is very cool. Lots of possibilities here.


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Vanwonky



Joined: Jul 24, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Whoops - credit where due. JingleJoe also said connect everything!

JingleJoe wrote:
remember that you have to connect every input on a cmos IC or the above mentioned glitches will happen.
A pull down or pull up resistor is required sometimes if you intend to use the input, but most of the time simply connecting the input directly to ground or +V will do.
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