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All praise Ligeti!
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Ponk



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: All praise Ligeti! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just got home from Lahti where I heard Ligeti's Atmosphères, Ravel's Piano Concerto in D for the Left Hand and Holst's The Planets. They were all great, but that Atmosphères...

My mind can be cleaned away from the ceiling of Sibeliustalo in Lahti. Unbelievable. What I wanted say here is that Ligeti sure is a genius.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ligeti is brilliant.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ligeti rocks!
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orczy



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

NO arguement from me here. He is quite brilliant. Do any of you know his electronic piece "Artikulations". Quite superb. "Atmospheres" is really something else. How much of Ligeti is there in early (69-73) Tangerine Dream? I'd say a healthy dollop!
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orczy



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry for posting again, but I just read Holst in there. There are parts of "The Planets" that are superb. "Jupiter", and "Neptune" in particular. Holst is very underrated outside of the UK I feel. "Egdon Heath" is a brilliant piece of dark mood painting. I really dig early 20th C English composers. There is something very unique about them. They avoided what was happening on the continent (with the vital exception of Sibelius, a true master) and therefore appeared backward to contemporary thinking. History is now beginning to place these composers, like Holst and Vaughan Williams, in their correct place. They were the English counterpart to what was happening a la Schoenberg et al, not a regressive reaction. Would it have made sense for an English composer, at that time, to have "gone serial". It would have been an artificial move, whereas for Schoenberg, it was an extension of what he saw as his heritage: Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, himself. VW and Holst in particular were interested in trying to discover a native English music, so 12 tones would've been rather incorrect. They found the English "sound" in the modes and folksongs. A situation very similar to that of Bartok, Enescu, Janacek etc. Sorry for going off topic, but when you start a rant...... Rolling Eyes
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Ponk



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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mustel wrote:
Sorry for going off topic, but when you start a rant...... Rolling Eyes

Schmooze is about going off topic!
mustel wrote:
There are parts of "The Planets" that are superb. "Jupiter", and "Neptune" in particular.

Yes, I like "Neptune" very much as well. For me the most appealing part of "The Planets" is maybe "Mars". The tension and the sense of aggression affect me quite strongly.

For me, "The Planets" suffered from being performed last, because "Atmosphères" and "Piano Concerto in D for the Left Hand" were so impressive. I was completely awe-struck after these first two pieces.

This was actually the very first time ever that I saw and heard a symphonic orchestra play (yes, I'm very young). Gotta get more into that stuff. The use of space and volume (I mean other than just being loud) is something that gets too little attention in rock and pop music, even in the more experimental branches.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

btw have you heard Digital Moonscapes by Wendy Carlos Question I like it a lot Very Happy
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salo-t



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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ligeti rocks! thumb up

Sibeliustalo rocks! Great acoustics there. thumb up

Ligeti has also this neat little piano work named "Musica Ricercata", in which the first part has only two pitches(over several octaves, however), second part has three, etc. until all twelve are utilized in the eleventh part.
The first few parts especially are good to study as an example of composing music when there are serious limitations on the musical material that can be used.
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orczy



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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ponk wrote:

Gotta get more into that stuff.

Ponk, your compatriot Sibelius is I believe one of the best places to start. The 4th, 6th, 7th Symphonies and "Tapiola" some of my favourites. I keep going back to Sibelius year after year, whereas other composers work only gets me back sporadically. I also feel Sibelius is a fantastic introduction into symphonic music, in sound as he was a unique and natural orchestrator, and in form, where everything is so organic. "Tapiola" shows both these qualities very strongly. One of the great sayings about Sibelius is that he left harmony where he found it; he added nothing to our harmonic vocabulary. Where he left his mark was on symphonic form and orchestration. One of his own great quotes about his work was; that while others were dishing up many coloured and flavoured cocktails, he wanted to present a cool, clear glass of mountain water. This he achieved in the 6th symphony. So clear, natural and organic. I have been told that his music sounds like the natural beauty of Finland? Is this true, Ponk?
Another ramble Rolling Eyes
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Ponk



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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mustel wrote:
Ponk, your compatriot Sibelius is I believe one of the best places to start. [...] I have been told that his music sounds like the natural beauty of Finland? Is this true, Ponk?

Of course Sibelius is a great composer, but I guess I'm into a bit more experimental classical music. Maybe I'll get the point of this more traditional stuff later. After all, it has happened before to me with a lot of music.

I'm not the right person to say anything about the link between Sibelius and the Finnish nature. Sure, the Finnish nature is very beautiful at its best, but I don't know if Sibelius sounds like that. Maybe.

Help me out here, salo-t! Smile
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Ponk



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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
btw have you heard Digital Moonscapes by Wendy Carlos Question I like it a lot Very Happy

No, I haven't heard of her. I'll go and check, if there's a copy of that recording in the library. A bit of googling revealed that Kubrick has used quite a lot of Carlos's music. He's one of the best directors when it comes to creative use of music in films. And all in all, one of the best directors.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have a problem with the term classicial music. That is a long story. Bottom line is that it is all sorts of music. As for favorites at the moment, Robert Hagstrøm sent me some CDs. This is magnificent stuff. Among his works I really love his 5th symphony, and the violin and the cello concertos. I am just about to put his piano music on repeat now. This is clearly within the classcial tradition, but also very modern, very personal and to me this is as contemporary as it gets. It does of course hit me at times that the excellent music by our excellent member Bachus is in the same league, and we really need some CDs by mr. Bachus.. ASAP.

The thing about Hagstrøm´s music is that it is so damned interesting and rich. Beethoven doesn´t quite work that well for me. I still like Beethoven´s piano sonatas but his symphonies are dull and crude.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, Sibelius is great too. Very Happy
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Ponk



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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I have a problem with the term classicial music. That is a long story. Bottom line is that it is all sorts of music.

I know exactly what you mean. I tried to find a better term to use before in this thread but couldn't find one. Even though the term "avantgarde classical" is contradictory in itself, I think it tells something about the kind of music like Ligeti's. I mean composers coming from "classical" tradition and trying to break the rules and redefine music with their work. Of course this refers to a huge amount of different kinds of music.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't think the term avant-garde applies to music that is made by professional musicians with conventional instruments reading scores. Legiti is solid in the classical music tradition, but he does not of course write in the classical style (Mozart, Hayden, etc). He is one of them, though.
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I don't think the term avant-garde applies to music that is made by professional musicians with conventional instruments reading scores.


Why not? That said, what is avantgarde these days? And is the term avantgarde relevant now? It might be 30 years from now, but is avantgarde really a valid term for anything going on right now?

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
but is avantgarde really a valid term for anything going on right now?


Good question... That should be another topic. Suggest you start one. Ligeti isn't avant garde though. Brilliant, beautiful, fascinating, and inspiring - yes.

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am a HUGE fan of Holst The Planets Suite...um..can i still get his autograph

may i say the 1971 Los Angeles Philharmonic [DECCA] recording just kicks ..and sounds amazing

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orczy



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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have several recordings of "The Planets", but my two favourites are Holst conducting it himself (1927) and Adrian Boult's 4th recording. Anal, I know, But I own all 4 Boult versions. Interesting as how he got older, how differently he paced some of the pieces.
The avant garde question: I had an interesting experience a few years ago. I was presenting a piece at a national composers workshop for Uni students. Most of the works were 12 tone, atonal or electro-acoustic. Comments were about how avant garde everyone was etc. I pointed out that atonality (in this sphere) was nearly 100 years old, 12 tone 80 years old, and electro-acoustic nearly 50 years old. Not a popular comment. It ended up that my modal song for organ and soprano stod out like a sore thumb, and indeed, probably sounded more "avant garde" for the very reason it sounded so different than evrything else performed at the workshop. Modality avant garde? Ask Vaughan Williams!
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mustel wrote:
Modality avant garde? Ask Vaughan Williams!

...or Miles Davis Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmmm I've never heard of this Ligeti. Perhaps I should check him out.

I'm chuffed that someone else really likes my Ralph! Very Happy The first time I heard his 5th symphony performed, like Ponk said, they could have licked my mind off the walls afterwards.

Mustel, that Holst-conducted recording of the Planets sounds manky!! Maybe production is more important to me...? The Neptune movement is top though. To my ear, it's as out there as the Rite of Spring, and from the same time. But who gets the props?

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mustel wrote:
I have several recordings of "The Planets", but my two favourites are Holst conducting it himself (1927)


Shocked do you know any way i can get this recording.... ! !

thanks

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dovdimus Prime wrote:
Hmmmm I've never heard of this Ligeti. Perhaps I should check him out.


Yes, you should check him out. Of course there may be many modern composers I have never heard, so making a statement like this is a bit absurd, but still... I think Ligeti is up there in the top of the 20th century composers with Stravinsky, Bartok, Bernstein, Shostakovich and Gershwin. He may not be as influencial as some others, like Schoenberg and Cage, nor as popular as John Adams or Phillip Glass, but I think as time goes on, Ligeti's star will rise.

While we are talking about Italian composers, Luciano Berio is easilly one of my favorites. He was a great pioneer in electronic music. His piece, Paroles, is directly responsible for me becoming a composer. It is spectacular. If you haven't heard this before, try to find a copy. Very highly recommended.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

While we are talking about Italian composers....


György Ligeti was born May 28, 1923 to Hungarian parents in Dicsöszentmárton (now Târnarveni) in Transylvania, Romania.

arrow http://www.sonyclassical.com/artists/ligeti_top.htm

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oppps. Embarassed

It sounds like and Italian name and I jumped to conclusions.

Well, is Berio Italian at least? Question

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