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VCO - strange fault ** SORTED, READ the post please **
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JRC4558D



Joined: Jun 29, 2014
Posts: 14
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:02 am    Post subject: VCO - strange fault ** SORTED, READ the post please **
Subject description: CV tracking is perfect, SAW, TRI and SIN outs are ok, no PULSE.
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Hi guys,

I have this Yusynth VCO, and seems to work fine apart from PULSE out which is like a flat line in the scope, and no sound is coming out.

What I already did was checking the whole PCB for cold solder, bridges and I followed with the multimeter the track from the IC6 (TL074CN) checking all the solder points and components up to the PULSE jack and everything seems to be ok.

I used all decoupling caps ceramic, and 10pf silver mica, the rest of them styroflex 1% and 5%.

Before soldering I measured every component and selected the closest values. Transistors (Fairchild BC550C) were matched using Atlas DCA55.

I already replace the TL074CN twice, but that didn't make any difference.

I did the calibration to see if that was the problem, watching the scope I noticed that SIN is not that nice, more close to a narrowed triangle and sounding a bit like that, TRI is fine and SAW is fine.

I should mention that it tracks pitch perfect across the 5 octaves of my MIDI controller, I am using ACX MIDI2CV, however the CV of this VCO is still uncalibrated, the trimpot is as it and works like that!. Smile

If anyone can help I will apreciate it.

Thanks a lot.

JRC


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Last edited by JRC4558D on Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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gdavis



Joined: Feb 27, 2013
Posts: 359
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks like you've done a pretty good job so far. If SAW and TRI look good, the core should be OK. Lets try to narrow it down some more by probing U6 pins 8, 9 and 10. Look for the following:

pin 8: Square wave, nearly rail-to-rail.
pin 9: ~+/-5V saw (make sure scope is set to DC coupling)
pin 10: measure DC voltage. Should be zero with nothing connected to PWM connector (all four pins of the connector disconnected). With it connected, look to see that the voltage tracks with the PWM knob.

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JRC4558D



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Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gdavis wrote:
Looks like you've done a pretty good job so far. If SAW and TRI look good, the core should be OK. Lets try to narrow it down some more by probing U6 pins 8, 9 and 10. Look for the following:

pin 8: Square wave, nearly rail-to-rail.
pin 9: ~+/-5V saw (make sure scope is set to DC coupling)
pin 10: measure DC voltage. Should be zero with nothing connected to PWM connector (all four pins of the connector disconnected). With it connected, look to see that the voltage tracks with the PWM knob.


Hi Gdavis,

Thanks a lot for your help.

I did exactly as you said and I have this reads (scope set DC Coupling, by-the-way I learnt that from you in another post Smile so thanks for that too!):

PIN8: yes, square about 14.5 vpp (almost rail to rail)
PIN9: yes, SAW about 4.7 vpp aprox.
PIN10: yes, it is zero when nothing is connected to the PWM connector.
When connector is in, and Pulse Width is set at zero (middle position) PWM knob does nothing at all, no matter what direction I move it.

Again, thanks a lot for your help.

Take care,

JRC

PS: I did an edit, previous answer I wrote was all wrong about PIN10 readings. Sorry about that.
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JRC4558D



Joined: Jun 29, 2014
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Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Now Pulse Works
Subject description: it was a misunderstanding of Pulse Width Knob
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Alright, here it was my fault, I set Pulse Width Potentiometer in -5 during the process of calibration , instead of setting it in 0 (zero, middle position) so the Pulse wave was hidden by the voltage coming in.

When I heared no sound coming from Pulse I just stop working on the VCO assuming it was not properly assambled or something was wrong.

Thanks to gdavis who put some light in this matter I rechecked everything and realized that pote was not properly set.

I will recalibrate the VCO with all the knobs in the right position and report back for other people in the same situation to learn something about my mistakes.

I assume that the Pulse wave is reaching such width that there is no sound because of the wrong calibration.
As it is now, when I move Pulse Width knob to -3 otr +3 the sound just dissapear and it is like a flat line in the scope.

If after the calibration it remains like that I guess I would replace the 12k resistors for a bigger value.( ? )

Sin and TRI have a lower volume than SAW and PULSE hopefully it will be corrected during calibration process. If not, should I try to reduce values of R29, R30 and R31 to get more volume?
Anyone having the same problem?


Cheers,

JRC.
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gdavis



Joined: Feb 27, 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JRC4558D wrote:

Hi Gdavis,

Thanks a lot for your help.

I did exactly as you said and I have this reads (scope set DC Coupling, by-the-way I learnt that from you in another post Smile so thanks for that too!):

PIN8: yes, square about 14.5 vpp (almost rail to rail)
PIN9: yes, SAW about 4.7 vpp aprox.

I don't think you mean vpp. That would be peak-to-peak, all the way from the bottom to the top and should be ~29V for pin 8 and ~9.4V for pin 9. The numbers you're giving appear to be Vpeak, from 0 to the top.

Quote:
PIN10: yes, it is zero when nothing is connected to the PWM connector.
When connector is in, and Pulse Width is set at zero (middle position) PWM knob does nothing at all, no matter what direction I move it.

Oops, my bad, I got the pots mixed up. I meant the Pulse Width pot, not the PWM pot.

JRC4558D wrote:
Alright, here it was my fault, I set Pulse Width Potentiometer in -5 during the process of calibration , instead of setting it in 0 (zero, middle position) so the Pulse wave was hidden by the voltage coming in.

Good, we're getting somewhere Smile

Quote:
I assume that the Pulse wave is reaching such width that there is no sound because of the wrong calibration.
As it is now, when I move Pulse Width knob to -3 otr +3 the sound just dissapear and it is like a flat line in the scope.

The pulse width knob setting shouldn't affect the calibration (as long as you're not using the pulse output to calibrate).
Based on the readings you provided above and the fact that the sound disappears at +/-3, it sounds like the range of the PW pot is off. I don't think calibration will help, but it's not a bad idea to check it again.

Quote:
If after the calibration it remains like that I guess I would replace the 12k resistors for a bigger value.( ? )


Let's not jump to replacing resistors just yet. Bigger values should help but it shouldn't be necessary and may just mask the real problem. Take some more measurements to make sure everything is as it should be:
1. Voltage on each of the outer lugs of the Pulse Width pot (think I've got that right this time Smile). Should be ~ +7.5V on one and -7.5V on the other.
2. With the PWM pot at 0, measure the voltage range you get at pin 10 when the Pulse Width pot is at each extreme. Should be about +4V to -4V (getting you close to the saw amplitude you saw on pin 9).

Quote:
Sin and TRI have a lower volume than SAW and PULSE hopefully it will be corrected during calibration process. If not, should I try to reduce values of R29, R30 and R31 to get more volume?
Anyone having the same problem?

How much lower? A little lower on the scope or noticeably lower when listening? The sine will be a little lower on the scope but it shouldn't really be noticeable when listening (see the pictures on the Yusynth website). The amplitude on the scope needs to drop to about +/-3.5V before you'll start to hear it.

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JRC4558D



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: New reads after trying a new calibration Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Gdavis,

Thanks a lot for your reply.

I recalibrated it and I discovered that something is wrong, SIN is almost like TRI in the scope no round peak at all and voltages are too low:

(Scope set 2volt/Div)

SIN:+3.8v -3.8v
TRI: +3v -3v
SAW:+3v -3v
PULSE: +5v -4v


U6 reads:
PIN8: SQUARE is +15v -14V (scope set 5Volt/Div)
PIN9: SAW is +3v -3v (scope set 2Volt/Div)
PIN10: zero (with Pulse Width set in 0 (middle))

Pulse Width pote lugs are about -7.16v + 7.10v

PWM pot set at 0, Pulse Width reads at each extreme +3.84v and -3.87v

SIN and TRI are really low in volume in the speakers, about a 40% of the volume I get from SAW or PULSE.

I hope this time around I did it properly Smile

Cheers,

JRC.
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gdavis



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, so now it looks like there's a problem with the SAW amplitude out of the core.

Low SAW amplitude leads to low TRI amplitude. Low TRI amplitude leads to incorrect SIN shape. So we need to focus on the SAW.

I'm also concerned about the pulse not being symmetric, maybe a power supply issue.

So let's look at the following:
1. U6 pin 1 - should be a saw ~ +/-5V.
2. U6 pin 5 and 7 - should be an offset saw between ~ 0-5V.
3. U7 pin 1 and 3 - should be ~5V.

Let's also check the power on U6 pins 4 and 11 and U5 pins 4 and 8.

Might also want to check/clean up the track going to pin 3 of U7 between pins 1/2 and V+. Even if it's not completely shorted, small defects or debris can create a low impedance patch that can cause problems.

Did you use a J112 for Q1? Did you check the pinout?

BTW, which scope are you using?

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JRC4558D



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:11 am    Post subject: Voltages are all wrong... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Gdavis,

Thanks a lot for your help.

PSU Voltage in the power connector in the VCO were : -14.98v +14.96v
I fixed that now they are +15.00v -15.00v

My PSU is very simple, a toroid 240v to 0-18 0-18v 7amp with two IC LM338, tow big 10000uf caps and two bridges, etc etc. I guess I have juice.

I did new readings. Now they are:

PULSE is +4.8v -4.5v
SAW is +3.1v -3.5v
TRI is +2.9v -3.5v
SIN is +3.5v +4.0v


U6 pin 1 -0.5v flat line
U6 pin 5 -0.5v flat line
U6 pin 7 -1.0v flat line
U6 pin 4 -0.89v
U6 pin 11 -14.99v

U7 pin 1 -0.45v
U7 pin 3 -0.25v

U5 pin 4 +14.3v
U5 pin 8 -0.75v

Q1 is J112

My oscilloscope is a Farnell 20 MHz DTV20. Two channels.


something is pretty bad with those readings...

I cleaned up that trace however I already check that with a 10x magnifier lens and despite there is some flux stain in the picture multimeter shows no resistance at all, just in case I cleaned it up with isopropyl alcohol.

I checked on the PCB unplugged and all connector out and there is no short between rails +-15 and no shorts between 7815 and 7915 outputs...

I'm gonna clean the whole PCB with isopopyl now to be 100% free of flux.

Cheers,

JRC
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JRC4558D



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Voltages are all wrong... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JRC4558D wrote:
Hi Gdavis,

Thanks a lot for your help.

PSU Voltage in the power connector in the VCO were : -14.98v +14.96v
I fixed that now they are +15.00v -15.00v

My PSU is very simple, a toroid 240v to 0-18 0-18v 7amp with two IC LM338, tow big 10000uf caps and two bridges, etc etc. I guess I have juice.

I did new readings. Now they are:

PULSE is +4.8v -4.5v
SAW is +3.1v -3.5v
TRI is +2.9v -3.5v
SIN is +3.5v +4.0v


U6 pin 1 -0.5v flat line
U6 pin 5 -0.5v flat line
U6 pin 7 -1.0v flat line
U6 pin 4 -0.89v
U6 pin 11 -14.99v

U7 pin 1 -0.45v
U7 pin 3 -0.25v

U5 pin 4 +14.3v
U5 pin 8 -0.75v

Q1 is J112

My oscilloscope is a Farnell 20 MHz DTV20. Two channels.


something is pretty bad with those readings...

I cleaned up that trace however I already check that with a 10x magnifier lens and despite there is some flux stain in the picture multimeter shows no resistance at all, just in case I cleaned it up with isopropyl alcohol.

I checked on the PCB unplugged and all connector out and there is no short between rails +-15 and no shorts between 7815 and 7915 outputs...

I'm gonna clean the whole PCB with isopopyl now to be 100% free of flux.

Cheers,

JRC


I cleaned up the whole PCB and replaced power cable, and I have these readings:

TL074 (u6)
U6 pin 01 +3v to -3v saw
U6 pin 05 0v to +3v curved ramp like expo going up from right to left
U6 pin 07 0v to +3v saw
U6 pin 04 +14.99v
U6 pin 11 -14.99v


LM311 (u5)
U5 pin 4 -14.29v
U5 pin 8 +13.60v



TL074 (u7)
U7 pin 1 +4.58v
U7 pin 3 +4.57v

PULSE is +4.0v -4.0v
SAW is +3.0v -3.0v
TRI is +3.0v -3.2v
SIN is +3.0v +3.9v

cheers,

JRC
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JRC4558D



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:17 pm    Post subject: PCB clean Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

After an isopropyl cleaning, it looks a lot better and as you can see on above readings are now much better (specially after replacing the faulty power cable , I guess I ruined it after pulling it so many times from the PCB). Recalibration din't make any improvement so far.

Still something is wrong.

Could it be the high Hfe on matched pair that are BC550C intead of BC547B ?

Cheers,

JRC


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gdavis



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: PCB clean Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JRC4558D wrote:
After an isopropyl cleaning, it looks a lot better and as you can see on above readings are now much better (specially after replacing the faulty power cable , I guess I ruined it after pulling it so many times from the PCB). Recalibration din't make any improvement so far.

Still something is wrong.

Could it be the high Hfe on matched pair that are BC550C intead of BC547B ?

Cheers,

JRC

I don't think it's the 550C's, I would expect that to affect the frequency range/tracking, but if you're able to get that calibrated correctly then I think it's fine.

JRC4558D wrote:

U6 pin 05 0v to +3v curved ramp like expo going up from right to left


The +3V here concerns me. To me it suggests that the integrator isn't getting fully reset. When the ramp reaches 0V, it should trigger the comparator (LM311) to turn on Q1 which should bring the voltage up close to the 4.58V you measured on U7 pin 1.

What value resistor do you have for R20 (between the LM311 and the 47p cap)? It's hard to see the colors but it doesn't look like 33k (orange orange orange).

Also make sure you have ~4.58V at C8 (the 220pf), that Q1 has a good connection across C8 and that you're using the correct transistor for Q1 (J112 with correct pinout).

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JRC4558D



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:34 am    Post subject: Readings and pics Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Gary,

Thanks a lot man, I can't believe is so hard to trace this fault.

Yes, C8 reads in one leg 4.58V in the other one 0.99V.

With the VCO turned off, across C8 I have like 40 ohms, almost a short but I guess that is because of the FET transistor (J112).

Yes, R20 is a metal film 5% 33K, however, which is even more annoying, I've hand picked every single component and (except for the IC) I have each of them measured to be sure they are the closest value to the circuit.

I am including some pics, Q1 (which I belive is in th right place), also with COARSE set in 4.5 ( almost centre) I put all of the output in the scope and took some pics of (SIN, TRI, SAW and PULSE), SIN looks pretty odd to me, maybe that could help? dunno.

Still if I move Pulse Width knob far from -3 or +3 in the panel scale, PULSE goes up or down in the scope as a flat line I guess around -15v +15v.

Off topic: is that synth you are bulding 16 VCOs? looks like a headache to me Confused trying to make right just one VCO Embarassed

Cheers mate,

JRC


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gdavis



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Readings and pics Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JRC4558D wrote:
Hi Gary,

Thanks a lot man, I can't believe is so hard to trace this fault.

Ha! Well everything we've done would have taken a few minutes if I was sitting there with ya. Long distance debug is tricky. And in fact, I'm starting to think there isn't an actual fault....

You can read in detail below, but the short answer is I think you need to change R23 to the 82k option mentioned in the schematic and parts list.

Quote:
Yes, C8 reads in one leg 4.58V in the other one 0.99V.

With the VCO turned off, across C8 I have like 40 ohms, almost a short but I guess that is because of the FET transistor (J112).

Yes, R20 is a metal film 5% 33K, however, which is even more annoying, I've hand picked every single component and (except for the IC) I have each of them measured to be sure they are the closest value to the circuit.

I am including some pics, Q1 (which I belive is in th right place), also with COARSE set in 4.5 ( almost centre) I put all of the output in the scope and took some pics of (SIN, TRI, SAW and PULSE), SIN looks pretty odd to me, maybe that could help? dunno.

Still if I move Pulse Width knob far from -3 or +3 in the panel scale, PULSE goes up or down in the scope as a flat line I guess around -15v +15v.

OK. The problems with the sine and pulse are are explained by the low amplitude out of the saw core. Other than that everything is looking OK. Once we get the core amplitude fixed everything else should fall into place.

FYI, the sine looks like that because of the way the shaper works. It takes the triangle and uses the diodes to round off the peaks. But with the low amplitude, it doesn't reach the point where the diodes turn on enough to really round off the peaks like they should. When we get the amplitude up, the diodes will turn on more and the peaks will be more rounded.

Similar is happening with the pulse. The Pulse Width knob is setting the threshold where the pulse output switches between high and low. But with the small amplitude out of the core, the threshold set by the knob exceeds the amplitude of the saw early, causing the output to flat-line.

Back to your issue, I've been thinking about it and I think I might have run into something similar with the boards I laid out. I was getting a low amplitude as well. I thought it was because of my layout but maybe it's something else. I'll have to go back and look at my schematics but I think I solved it by increasing the value of C10 to extend the reset pulse.

And now that I think about it some more, you could also fix it by adjusting R23. If you look at the schematic and parts list, there's a note stating that you may need to use 82k instead of 100k. This will increase the amplitude out of the core, and I wonder if this is the reason why Yves included this.

82k may not get you all the way there, but it will get you closer. You might need closer to 66k to get a full +/-5V output.

If you want to have a look at the reset, try hooking your scope up with channel 1 on the gate of Q1 and channel 2 on the saw output. Trigger on channel 1 and zoom the time scale way in so you can see the short pulse. Compare this pulse to the saw resetting. When you view the full saw wave, the reset looks instantaneous, but when you zoom in this close, you should see a slope during the reset pulse. Increasing the duration of the reset pulse should let this slope continue further giving you a larger amplitude in the saw.

Quote:
Off topic: is that synth you are bulding 16 VCOs? looks like a headache to me Confused trying to make right just one VCO Embarassed

Cheers mate,

JRC


Yep, 16 VCO's, 8 VCF's, 16 ADSR's and a whole lot of VCA's (only VCO and VCF were Yusynth). That's why I had the PCB's commercially fab'd, etching them myself was becoming a real pain. The fab'd boards actually went together quite nicely.

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JRC4558D



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:13 am    Post subject: Sorted!
Subject description: Problem was R23. Solution a 68K resistor instead of the 100K or 82K.
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Hi Gary,

Thanks a lot man, your help has been invaluable, and now the VCO is working perfectly well.

I replaced R23 100k by 82K as Yves suggested and that worked a lot better than the 100K one, however PULSE WIDTH was still like a flat line after knob set around -4 or +4 and the waves were a bit unbalanced, despite SINE improved a lot.

Then I replaced R23 by a 68K resistor (actually it reads 68K1 on the multimeter) I've got and that was the fix, every wave in the scope looks like Yves examples and even better, I mean my glitches in the TRI and SAW spikes are like a 40% of the ones in the scope pics Yves posted in his web. PULSE WIDTH now works perfect, so everything is working great.

Thanks a lot mate I owe you!

For those building this VCO bear in mind that R23 could end up being down to 68K or less... Of course after replacing R23 you must recalibrate the VCO several times to get it working perfect.




Cheers,

JRC.

PS (off-topic): My Gosh, that synth will be a pain to build Smile. I heared the Depeche Mode version you played on it and it sounds amazing, I guess when you have all of the issues nailed it will be a superanalog beast...
I wish you good luck!! and keep your wires as short as possible and audio shielded because that is a lot of wires looking for trouble! Smile
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gdavis



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great, glad you got it working Very Happy

The synth is mostly built. I don't remember doing a Depeche Mode demo, but I guess the two-voice demo sounds a little Depeche Mode like, is that the one you mean? In case you missed it, I actually have another demo with all 8 voice playing a Van Halen midi file:
https://youtu.be/1ClwyIJxr8E

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