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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject: Sad observation Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Crying or Very sad

Sometime in the last month, the number of American soldiers killed in the war in Iraq passed the number of members of electro-music.com. Last I heard there were over 1800 killed in action. We have 1762 members.

There is, of course, no correlation between the two counts, but I have always been fascinated by numbers - especially numbers of people - especially dead ones. Maybe it has something with my being born Jewish and always pondering the 6 million killed in WW2. What is 6 million? How to get a conception of this?

One thing I did in my youth to try to comprehend this was to play an oscillator, and run it into a counter. I would wait for the number of zero crossings to hit 6 million. It is a very depressing long wait.

Here is a conceptual description: Start off slowly, one click per second, and crank it up to A 440. You can't count 440 per second, but you can hear it as a tone and 440 is a number you can conceive of. Listen to it and think that every vibration is one person. You have to listen this continuously for 3 days, 18 hours and 43 minutes to get 6 million. Shocked

Anyway, 1800 is a lot of kids. I know they are grow men and women, but when I seen their pictures on the evening news, they all look like kids to me. Mad

There are tens, if not hundreds, of non-Americans killed for every American soldier in Iraq since this war started. I'm not saying the American soldiers have killed them all. The official policy of the American government is not to publish estimates of these people killed.

God help us: we have so little regard for human life that we don't even count those that die as a result of this discretionary war. Bush says he values life, unlike the Nazis. But at least the Nazis counted.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:17 pm    Post subject: 60 years ago a bomb was also detonated over Hiroshima Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc, it's also 60 years today since the American army dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

howard,
i know we don't agree on these kinds of issues, and i too see every one of these lives lost as tragedies. thinking of "6 million" seems to me the same kind of tribalism that leads to all war..."6 million of us" is really only about half the number that were killed in concentration camps, and any minority group would have eventually become part "of the problem to be eliminated".....this is the lesson of hitler, not that he killed jews.

i'm pretty thick skinned, but "at least the nazi's counted" offends me on every level. do you really see this as the biggest differance between what the us is doing in iraq and what hitler did to jews, gypsies, homosexuals, catholics, etc? i know the war gets you upset, and i have the utmost respect for your perspective, but i can't imagine that you really mean this.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
.. do you really see this as the biggest differance between what the us is doing in iraq and what hitler did to jews, gypsies, homosexuals, catholics, etc?


I have no idea what Howard thinks. However, the way I see this.. the US as such isn´t doing anything in Iraq. So.. what is happening in Iraq? That is simply nothing but the Bush Junta playing a costly game. And the US as a nation is paying the bill. And yes, the Nazi system did count the dead. One might ask which is closer to the dystopian visions of Orwells´s 1984, Nazi Germany or the US today? I read PKD so I guess you certainly won´t trust my understanding of these matters anyway.

deknow wrote:
.. what Hitler did to jews, gypsies, homosexuals, catholics, etc?


..has been done to you name `em all over the place all the time. Still happens. A part of the problem is how we are accepting the demonisation of Hitler and his henchmen. Truth is, ordinary people commited these acts. I know that makes it much harder to understand, but that is how it is.

Try to read Howard´s post again. He is trying to express pain. I think I can feel some of that pain. My father walked out of the Weimar camps alive. Statistically speaking I shouldn´t be alive. I feel guilt. Why should I be alive when so many people died? I am not sure I am coping with that, but I do try to remember the dead and express that in what I do. Perhaps this is senseless and sick. I don´t know. What I do know is that the pain won´t go away.

OK. Howard looks at the current number of members here and compares that with the 1800 and some US kids killed in Iraq. Consider that. Take out all the members here. Do that. Then think about it. Then try to expres s what you feel.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
i'm pretty thick skinned, but "at least the nazi's counted" offends me on every level


Check out the writings of that other Howard.. Howard Zinn. There are no good wars.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BTW: isn´t the modern term "collateral damage" amusing?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Deknow wrote:
"at least the nazi's counted" offends me on every level. do you really see this as the biggest difference between what the us is doing in iraq and what hitler did to jews, gypsies, homosexuals, catholics, etc? i know the war gets you upset, and i have the utmost respect for your perspective, but i can't imagine that you really mean this.


Obviously, it is a rhetorical device. Idea

No, it certainly is not the biggest difference between the US and the Nazis. I'm not even comparing the Nazis to the Americans. I'm not saying that we are as evil or more evil than the Nazis.

Not even suggesting the the US immediately pull out of Iraq.

I do think it is irresponsible not to keep count of the dead, whether they be enemy combatants or innocent civilians - if only to make future policy. Also, it is a concern to me that the scope of the horror of this war is not sufficiently in the consciousness of the public.

As Tom points out, it is the 60th anniversary of the dropping of the A-Bomb on Hiroshima. There is very little coverage of this in the US media. There seems to be a fear that if we simply describe the consequences on the people in Hiroshima, then we are blaming America for doing the wrong thing. I don't see it that way.

Quote:
thinking of "6 million" seems to me the same kind of tribalism that leads to all war..."6 million of us"


Nope, we are all human beings. Personally, I identify with the Nazis just as much as with their victims. 6 million is a number I was impressed with as a child. Only later did I realize that in that scope of things, it is not the only large number in these things. But, to Jews it was very tramatic and I understand why it was impressed on me from my birth in 1946.

Do other people have significant numbers in their lives they had a challenging experience dealing with? I can't believe I'm alone in this. Shit, I've spent a great deal of time considering Plank's constant and Avagodro's number. Shocked

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
BTW: isn´t the modern term "collateral damage" amusing?


It's on a par with 'friendly fire'.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i don't think it's really possible (or responsible) to have such a discussion without looking into history a little...without such perspective, these are just "large numbers". i feel pain over this as well, but i think there are a few things that have to be kept in mind.

1. 1800+ deaths is a high and horrible price. in other wars, it wasn't uncommon for 1800+ to die in a single battle, in a matter of days. please don't interpret this as "it's only 1800", as that's not where i'm coming from...it's more that despite how much killing one another sucks, it has _always_ been a part of the human experience, and it is an accomplishment that the numbers in this war are, in comparison to the past, significantly lower.

2. saddam killed 5000 kurds in one shot. the us didn't help things much there, but the us didn't pull the trigger either. this was of course not an isolated incedent...saddam was a murderous tyrant who ruled by killing, torture, and fear....and the iraqi's are very likely going to live better for his being disposed. you can fault the us if you don't like how this was done, but (as we have discussed before), the un, france, germany, and russia all played their part in keepiing him in power for financial gain despite his having invaded kuiat, and despite international sanctions (un oil for food, and oil contracts that were not permited under the sanctions).

3. in any previous war (as far as i can tell), someone with a gun in a battle area with no uniform would have been shot on the spot (by any nations forces, not just the us). this has not been the practice in iraq (thank god), and these fighters are generally taken into custody. tens (if not hundreds) of thousands have been taken into custody under such circumstances, and most have been released. yes, there are problems with detaining anyone, but if these people had just been shot (as the practice used to be), there would be no one complaining about prison abuse....this is (i think) progress.

4. i don't know how one goes about counting the number dead "on the other side". you are bound to either drastically overestimate or underestimate the numbers. i agree that it should be done (and i doubt it's not being done), but i'm not sure how well it can be done. certainly, like any "intelligence" (the art of knowing what you are not supposed to know) you are damned either way you lean, and i can understand the govt not wanting to make statements that are "wrong" no matter what they do. the us is faulted for "overestimating" the wmd problem in iraq (and this is by no means a bush or republican problem....clinton was right on board with these estimates), and the british are faulted for "underestimating" the potential for terrorism in their public transit system.....neither one looks good in hindsight, and both are deadly assumptions.

5. as far as i can tell (and someone please correct me), this is a war where it would be easier and less costly to just bomb the fuck out of iraq without setting foot on the ground....killing people indiscrimately until whomever is left surrenders, and never set foot on the ground....it seems much more difficult to try and police things and help them develop a constitution and self determination...this is the hard way to do things, not the easy way out.

6. i too grew up with the "6 million" number impressed upon me, and i agree with stein that these were "ordinary people" commiting these attrocities. this is why i feel the lesson of the holocost was not "jews were killed" but that "groups were targeted"....this is the danger, and what we have to make sure does not happen again.


i do find it somewhat ironic that you credit the nazis for couting the people they killed, but you cite only the number of jews....one could say "at least the nazi's counted the gypsies, homosexuals, and catholics they killed...you didn't even do that!" (i want to put a smiley face here because i'm pointing out something ironic, but i don't think it's approprate here).

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
As Tom points out, it is the 60th anniversary of the dropping of the A-Bomb on Hiroshima. There is very little coverage of this in the US media. There seems to be a fear that if we simply describe the consequences on the people in Hiroshima, then we are blaming America for doing the wrong thing. I don't see it that way.


I can understand why many might find it problematic to explore the issues re the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is a valid claim that these acts were true atrocities but they weren´t ideologically removed from Allied air war in Europe. This is the same shit only difference is that the atomic bombs were a bit more powerful. The saturation bombing / areabombing came back in full during the Korean and Vietnam war. Yet again these atrocities were commited by ordinary people as part of the job.

Trivia: Apart from the leader of the british Bomber Command, Harris, the complete responsibility for the destruction of the cities of Germany lies with Winston Churchill. Churchill had in a sense already, early on, promised the british a "total war", which only later was an idea picked up by the nazis. I fully accept that all things considered the way the Bomber Command took the slaughter to the enemy clearly was to be considered a good thing at the time. But times change. The now famous fire bombing of Dresden, which wasn´t the "worst" of these raid anyway, woke up Churchill. He used this incident in order to distance himself from the moral responsibility for effects of the "moral bombing" of Germany. He, being seasoned politician, understood that when peace came, the systemic destruction of civilian targets would no longer be seen as a good thing. However, it is a fact that the "Airwar on Germany" did indeed help end the war in Europe. Issues and cause and effect regarding taking out Hiroshima and Nagasaki are far more complex. That is how it is. I am fairly certain that historians won´t find the current US occupation of Iraq less complex and messy. Anyway, the game is afoot and I cannot see any easy way out now.

More trivia: The german occupation of Norway in 1940 was technically speaking a true military occupation with force. However, the germans did try to communcate this as a peace keeping mission and to keep the british out. It is a fact that Norway could just as well have been invaded by the british at that time. But then norwegians started to die early on. Clearly that part of the propaganda didn´t work too well. I am not sure there is a lesson here, but when people start to die then the shit hits the fan.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Deknow:

1) Yes, more people have died in other wars. This seems irrelevant to me.

2) Yes, Sadaam was a bad evil dictator and it is a likely Iraqs are eventually going to live better for his being disposed. Still, it seems like we could have picked a smarter way to get rid of him.

3) True, the US soldiers do everything they can not to kill innocent people. Still, a lot of innocent people are dying.

4) I'm glad you agree we should count the bodies.

5) Yes, this is the hard way to do things, not the easy way out. Sometimes, it is better to do the smart and intellegent thing, not the hard thing.

6) Yes, "groups were targeted"....this is the danger. Still, when you are a member of one of the "groups", it's more personal.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, it is indeed personal.

That being said, 911 and the attacks in London aren´t really much different from the Bomber Command´s terrorbombing/moral bombing during World War 2. It is a way to systemically affect a population. The term terrorism doesn´t in a proper way address this. Many US and UK politicians see this. This is truly warfare using means well known from World War 2.

Related to this is of course the fact that the US isn´t the only player in Iraq. I did disagree with the reasons for going to war and how it was done. However, with the situation as it is in Iraq now, I am not sure the US should withdraw right now.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:

5. as far as i can tell (and someone please correct me), this is a war where it would be easier and less costly to just bomb the fuck out of iraq without setting foot on the ground....killing people indiscrimately until whomever is left surrenders, and never set foot on the ground....it seems much more difficult to try and police things and help them develop a constitution and self determination...this is the hard way to do things, not the easy way out.




........and you wonder why people come back at us with suicide bombers and we all cry like spoilt little babies? :roll:
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
However, with the situation as it is in Iraq now, I am not sure the US should withdraw right now.


I'm still not sure how I feel about whether it was wrong to go to war with Iraq. I am sure that the reasons given at the time were wrong though.

I do feel angy with people who make demands to 'Stop the War'. Regardless of how we got there, it seems apparent to me that to leave now would bring enormous disaster for Iraqis.

Does anyone feel differently to me about this? Does anyone feel an immediate withdrawal is the way to go? I'd like to learn from your point of view.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Yes, Sadaam was a bad evil dictator and it is a likely Iraqs are eventually going to live better for his being disposed. Still, it seems like we could have picked a smarter way to get rid of him.



yep SH was a nasty bit of work BUT we should have lifted sanctions and let Iraq opposition rise up against Hussein. The west always wants to 'police' the east- it's been going on since we occupied Iraq just after the 1st world war.

1800+ people is an awful lot of dead US service men, but please don't let us forget that in this US/UK 'war on terrorism' we have also killed 100,000+ innocent peace loving Iraqi Men, Women and Children.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dovdimus Prime wrote:
I'm still not sure how I feel about whether it was wrong to go to war with Iraq. I am sure that the reasons given at the time were wrong though.


Well no WMD were ever found- wans't this the reason we went to war?


Dovdimus Prime wrote:

I do feel angy with people who make demands to 'Stop the War'. Regardless of how we got there, it seems apparent to me that to leave now would bring enormous disaster for Iraqis.


So you feel angry with me? Why? I/We warned everyone of the consequences, but no one listened. Now we have young british men who are willing to die in British towns and cities taking innocent people with them.

Ennormous disaster? Yes of OUR OWN MAKING!!! Do we really give a fuck??? No of course we don't. this has always been about oil and the continuation of the British and US empire without any thought to alternatives. But what the HELL do we expect????


Dovdimus Prime wrote:


Does anyone feel differently to me about this? Does anyone feel an immediate withdrawal is the way to go? I'd like to learn from your point of view.


Okay- you want my opinion? We could stay and police Iraq, and we will continue to have people come back at us with bombs on our underground/ whatever. Alternatively, we withdraw from Iraq now and let the Iraqi people make there own minds up about how to run their country. For christ's sake they are not children!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wouldn't just immediately withdraw form Iraq now because it would leave a lot of people who collaborated with us to be victims of radical extremists that would take over.


But not admitting this thing is a big mistake and poorly managed is also not the best thing either. Certainly, the US and British governments are either totally incompetent or they criminally lied to their people about the presence of WMD and the absolute urgency for us to invade and occupy Iraq. I personally think they lied because after Powell spoke at the UN they then sent our intelligence guys to France, Germany and Russia with the evidence - alll three countries said there was no evidence. I remember Putin saying, "They showed us their evidence of the weapons of mass distuction and there is no evidence."

Afghanistan was different from Iraq.

1) There was already in place an Afghani force (the Northern Alliance) we could support
2) We had the support of the world, including Syria, Russia, France, Germany, and China.

It is apparent that the US and British governments did not expect this Iraqi insurgency to develop and to be so strong. They have shown time after time that they don't understand Arabs and radical Islam. Bush and Blair are like two stupid kids that think you can get rid of a hornets nest by knocking it down with a stick.

So here we are in a really ugly situation. Nothing will improve until we get rid of the people who got us into this situation. These guys don't know how to admit they made mistakes and they are unable to learn. New leaders will at least be able to think of solutions more clearly and will have some credibility to implement them. In the meantime, we can count the dead and feel the pain.

Now, Bush is saying that to honor those who have already died, we must stay the course. This is military nonsense. A good military leader keeps himself emotionally detached from his decisions, keeps reviewing the facts, and adapts continually to the ever changing situation on the battle field. He never says, "This attack is failing but we can't retreat because it will dishonor those who have died." Maybe staying the course is the best course of action, but lets not do it for nonsensical reasons. It's making up reasons that got us into this mess in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Now, Bush is saying that to honor those who have already died, we must stay the course. This is military nonsense. A good military leader keeps himself emotionally detached from his decisions, keeps reviewing the facts, and adapts continually to the ever changing situation on the battle field. He never says, "This attack is failing but we can't retreat because it will dishonor those who have died." Maybe staying the course is the best course of action, but lets not do it for nonsensical reasons. It's making up reasons that got us into this mess in the first place.


Emotions are what politicians use to create a mob. That should never be forgotten, and use of fear has been a long tactic with this US regime. People may feel set back by calling it a regime, but this, in fact, is what it currently is. Democracy doesn't override people's representatives at every chance to get what the few want. Was Bolton voted into the UN? Was Florida allowed to continue with it's state laws? Homosexual marriage as a national crisis? They even used Stem Cells as mass histeria (Yes, pamphlets were placed throughout the midwest telling people they were sinners to vote for any democrat!). Of course, suddenly that changed at the head of the senate now we are far enough away from elections.

Fear, plain & simple.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...i can only speak for myself. i'm not convinced that the war in iraq was a huge mistake....the only way we could know would be to live a paralell timeline and see what saddam would have done in last 3 years. we do know that he gassed 5000 kurds apparantly without remorse of any kind. we also know that he played a 12 year cat and mouse game with the iaea and with the terms of the cease fire....not to mention the initial invasion of kuiat, and the general brutality with which he ruled.

wmd's were certainly a large "selling point" for the war (especially by the media), and just as certainly, saddam wanted everyone to think he had them (i think of a cartoon bank robber with his finger in his pocket pretending there is a gun inside...one would expect such a robber to be shot). would he have obtained them? did he have them and they end up in syria (i think this is fairly likely, but it would probably take military action in syria to find out...and i don't think this would be a wise move)? certainly i don't think anyone would doubt that he would use them if given the chance....but it was not simply wmd's that were the basis for the war.....it was 12 years of dancing around the conditions of the cease fire with clearly dishonest (and destructive) intentions (including paying the famillies of suicide bombers).

when i think of the situation in iraq (and i do so quite a bit), i think also about the holocost. i think about the us not being willing to take refugee children because it was "inhumane" to separate children from their parents. i also think about how many millions of lives might not have been extinguished if the us (and the rest of the world) had the balls to say "this is not right" instead of ignoring things until they show up on ones doorstep....would we even know what had been averted? (i'm not sure). hindsight is always more accurate than foresight, and although i'm willing to accept that dropping sanctions might have been able to help foster an internal uprising, i'm not sure what would have happened in the intervening time....were the people so frightend that they could not afford to even think in revolutionary terms (i suspect this is the case)? what atrocities would saddam have committed in the meantime? (i don't know, but i think i would rather not find out).

i don't really expect to change anyones mind here. i certainly didn't see anyone in the last us presidential election who seemed willing to admit their own mistakes, and certainly not someone who i think would make better decisions....this is sad, but true, i wish i thought it was as simple as electing "the other guy" or "some other guy".....i'm afraid there is much more to be done before it is possible to elect someone better.

i also grew up as part of "the group who lost 6 million" in the holocost...this is (at least from my perspective) a very important thing to overcome. there is only "us" (not the u.s., but "us"), we are all on the same marble, and more individuals have the power today to cause more death and pain than has ever been the case before in history. being jewish has been difficult and dangerous many times and places through history...jews using the "6 million" number seems to me to be doing more to keep separate from "them". there were 12 million plus humans killed in cold blood. it was just as brutal to do so to a gypsy as to do so to a jew...while we say "look what was done to us in the holocost" we are being tribal....we are separating ourselves in much the same way hitler separated the jews and other groups from the rest of society...this is the wrong direction. we must see ourselves as members of the human familly and care eqully about all of our familly members. this is how minority groups need to be treated in any civilized city/nation/planet, and there is no way we can come together by saying "look what was done to my group", we must say "look what was done to innocent humans".

deknow
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
we do know that he gassed 5000 kurds apparantly without remorse of any kind.


You mean back in 1988?

deknow wrote:
i also think about how many millions of lives might not have been extinguished if the us (and the rest of the world) had the balls to say "this is not right" instead of ignoring things


If I recall "this is not right" is what the rest of the world did say about Bush's invasion, he just chose not to listen.
I don't think this proves he has balls, I think it just proves he is an idiot (IMHO).
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Dovdimus Prime



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi V. Thanks for your responses. I'm sorry if you're offended - that was not my intention.

v-un-v wrote:
Dovdimus Prime wrote:
I'm still not sure how I feel about whether it was wrong to go to war with Iraq. I am sure that the reasons given at the time were wrong though.


Well no WMD were ever found- wans't this the reason we went to war?


Sure, we agree here. My quote says 'I am sure that the reasons given at the time [for going to war] were wrong.


v-un-v wrote:
Dovdimus Prime wrote:

I do feel angy with people who make demands to 'Stop the War'. Regardless of how we got there, it seems apparent to me that to leave now would bring enormous disaster for Iraqis.


So you feel angry with me? Why? I/We warned everyone of the consequences, but no one listened. Now we have young british men who are willing to die in British towns and cities taking innocent people with them.


Err, yes, I suppose I do feel angry with you, as someone who advocates what I believe to be a withdrawal of protection from ordinary Iraqis. Obviously Iraqis suffer and die as a result of the occupation, but I believe that far more would suffer and die if the country collapsed into civil war. Both of us are concerned here about the welfare of ordinary Iraqis. I gather that where we disagree is what would happen if there was a withdrawal. I believe it would be a tragedy for ordinary Iraqis.

v-un-v wrote:
Ennormous disaster? Yes of OUR OWN MAKING!!! Do we really give a fuck??? No of course we don't. this has always been about oil and the continuation of the British and US empire without any thought to alternatives. But what the HELL do we expect????


Agreed. Enormous disaster of our own making. Failing 'to win the peace' has been an enormous disaster. We have a moral responsibility to (as far as possible) make good what we have fucked up. I feel that the best way to do that is to stabilise the country the best we can while a viable Iraqi state forms. An analogy would be to set a broken limb while it heals. You feel (I assume) that the best way to meet our debt to ordinary Iraqis is to withdraw and leave them to it.

v-un-v wrote:
Dovdimus Prime wrote:

Does anyone feel differently to me about this? Does anyone feel an immediate withdrawal is the way to go? I'd like to learn from your point of view.


Okay- you want my opinion? We could stay and police Iraq, and we will continue to have people come back at us with bombs on our underground/ whatever. Alternatively, we withdraw from Iraq now and let the Iraqi people make there own minds up about how to run their country. For christ's sake they are not children!


Yes, I want your opinion, thanks for providing it. I'm interested in why people think things that I can't see.

Yes, I agree that terrorism in the UK would decline if we withdrew. I also believe that some terrorists (since not all have the same aims) would continue to bomb the Tube given the chance regardless of what we did. As I stated above, I believe further that we have a moral responsibility to the Iraqis to help their nation get back on its feet, after fucking up the deposition of Hussein so badly. Perhaps terrorism is a price we pay for a determination to make good mistakes we have made.

Incidentally, I should mention that my views on the occupation of Iraq, are mine, and not what I suppose the UK government's to be!! I think it's right to stay and try and sort things out, I'm not pretending to second-guess Blair's motives.

As for Iraqis not being children, I don't need to be told this. But there are many factions in Iraq, who obviously include the sort of people who deliberately kill innocent people to further their own political aims. Just being grown-up isn't enough to prevent a terrible civil war.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dovdimus Prime wrote:
......a withdrawal of protection from ordinary Iraqis.


I know this is a controversial issue. I tend to agree with Dovder. There simply isn´t a strong normative state present in Iraq right now. A withdrawal that looks more fleeing the crimesite wouldn´t exactly help stabilizing Iraq. The terrorism seen in Iraq isn´t only about kicking US ass, but also about destabilizing Iraq and overthrowing the new government. The new Iraqi nation should be strengthened in order to be able to handle this internal struggle. Another major issue is that much of the infrastructure of Iraq is still in a seriously bad shape. That has to be resolved now.

Politically it would have been far more graceful to have had Kerry take over the mess. Too bad that didn´t happen. I don´t think fewer people would have died, but I do think the game could have been played in a different and hopefully more trustworthy manner.

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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Avagodro's number. Shocked


Avogadro's number

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Plank's constant


arrow http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~noenergy/planks_constant-e.html

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jkn



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Sad observation Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

There is, of course, no correlation between the two counts, but I have always been fascinated by numbers - especially numbers of people - especially dead ones. Maybe it has something with my being born Jewish and always pondering the 6 million killed in WW2. What is 6 million? How to get a conception of this?


I pm'd this to mosc and he kind of wondered why I didn't just post it to the thread - so here it is. I also found a better link ( http://www.buttonproject.com/ ) than the one I pm'd you, Howard.


We have a holocaust memorial in Peoria, IL. 11 millions buttons were collected and are now on display at an outdoor mall. It's a very visual way of seeing just how many 11 million is...

Photos: http://www.buttonproject.com/sculpture_images.html



http://www.theshoppesatgrandprairie.com/info/HolocaustMemorial.cfm
Quote:

Located at The Shoppes at Grand Prairie in Peoria, the Peoria Holocaust Memorial contains 11 million buttons, each one representing a life lost during the Holocaust, one of the largest and most tragic persecutions in human history. Six million represent the Jews who perished and 5 million represent the “enemies of the state” who were murdered at the hands of the Nazis.


The memorial was the result of two years of work by a dedicated core of volunteers who coordinated the collection of buttons and the funds to build the unique display. Thousands of central Illinois residents and across the world responded. Buttons were selected because of their circular shape representing the cycle of life and how they hold things together like each person who tried to hold together his or her family. Buttons were a part of the clothes the victims left behind at the gates of the concentration camps.


Visit the site yourself to see the 18 glass Stars of David, which represent the Jews and the yellow stars they were forced to wear, in two rows of nine to symbolize the selection process. The number 18 translates in Hebrew to the word “Chai,” which means life.


The five million buttons representing the “enemies of the state” are in five glass triangles, symbolic of the badges that Roma gypsies, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the handicapped, trade unionists, as well as political and religious leaders, were forced to wear.


Informational kiosks are also at the site, featuring a historical timeline as well as individual testimonials from Holocaust survivors and liberators. For more information, contact the Jewish Federation of Peoria at 309/689-0063.
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