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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
1.4 update
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Rob



Joined: Mar 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:

I modified the patch to get a better 16 versusu 24 bit fx...


Wooohoo, watch it Sven. What you do here is not valid, you now use a 24-bit delay to delay a signal you reduced to sort of the 16 lowest bits and then use a 16-bit delay to delay a signal that now in fact is reduced to some eight bits of resolution. This is really bad science! Simply as you don't use the eight most significant bits. Does this mean that it is not common sense one would use the most significant bits, except when one is specifically after a lofi bit-quantization effect?

If you would want to go that route, why not reduce the signal through the 24-bit delay to nine bits and the signal going through the 16-bit delay to one bit? That would seem to prove whatever your point is even better!

I tried to create a realistic situation, one that would show the practical difference in normal use of 16-bit versus 24-bit delay lines by using a normal oscilllator output level, by a pretty straightforward patching technique. Not a situation that one would typically always try to avoid. Do I now have to prove that when a 24 bit signal is divided by a factor of four milllion we do really need 32 bits of delay memory?

Guys, I would really, really complain very loud now that the G2 is not an 80-bit machine running at a 4MHz sample rate. Which in fact would make no difference, as bullshit in, bullshit out. But you would get bullshit at a quality that even an ant would freak out on.

Blaah, now I've had it. I'm not gonna waiste any more time here and I'm gonna unsub myself. Bye, bye!

If I were Clavia I would immediately discontinue the G2, as why bother at all!


24bit_delay3.pch2
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24-bit delays really suck!!! We absolutely need 80 bit delay memory running at 4 MHz!!!

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jamos



Joined: Jun 01, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rob wrote:

Blaah, now I've had it. I'm not gonna waiste any more time here and I'm gonna unsub myself. Bye, bye!


I hope you're joking, Rob; I'd hate to see this community damaged by a couple of people who dislike Clavia instruments.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, we love you, Rob. You are the master art this art/science/art/sciece.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can very well imagine Rob to be fed up, IMO its not just this thread, there is too much negativism in general towards Clavia as if people forget what a wonderfull instrument the G2 is.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:
I hope you're joking, Rob; I'd hate to see this community damaged by a couple of people who dislike Clavia instruments.


Like who, pray tell? This whole discussion could have been far more pleasant and about half as lengthy if people would just READ WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN! Do any of you ever go back and see how a thread develops? This is getting increasingly rediculous.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
I can very well imagine Rob to be fed up, IMO its not just this thread, there is too much negativism in general towards Clavia as if people forget what a wonderfull instrument the G2 is.


Negativism? I'm not able to determine wether any negativism is going on since I still don't know what that word means. There is critisism against Clavia on highly speciffic points, cerrainly not in general. In fact as I read this discussion the people being critical are being highly speciffic and are trying to de-escalate the whole issue while some others are trying to make it all as general as possible with ad-hominem atacks and implications that all sorts of things are being said or requested that aren't written anywhere at all. The world is not this B&W, the contrasts not that large.

Nobody is "forgetting what a wonderfull instrument the G2 is", people who felt it is still feel so and people who don't still hope the hardware might become one in future O.S. updates.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rob wrote:
3phase wrote:

I modified the patch to get a better 16 versusu 24 bit fx...


Wooohoo, watch it Sven. What you do here is not valid, you now use a 24-bit delay to delay a signal you reduced to sort of the 16 lowest bits and then use a 16-bit delay to delay a signal that now in fact is reduced to some eight bits of resolution. This is really bad science! Simply as you don't use the eight most significant bits. Does this mean that it is not common sense one would use the most significant bits, except when one is specifically after a lofi bit-quantization effect?


Ups, sorry Rob...You misunderstood what i was after with reducing before the delay line... I wanted to create a situation where an area that usually is below the noise floor has to chew some audio information...
I wasnt after the proof that 24 bit delays are better..
I dont care if they are 24 or 16 so much.
I wanted to check your patch and see if you really managed it to have this split working.
Smile of cause you did... And it is quite interesting to boost the G2 internal processing in such an unfair way...
I am aware that this is oposite gain structure.
But its interesting to create a situation where such an extrem little level gets processed...... without boosting before the process...
I think the G2 shines because there is still some sound quality left...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One interesting point in the last version from robs 24 delay line patch...

it dont matters in the actual state of this patch how much i reduce after the oscilator.
I added an crazy amount of amp modules but it dont makes a differnce anymore...

what is going on here?


24bitDelSucks;-).pch2
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3phase



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And another interesting state of the patch..
in this one the circuit of rob is probably pretty destroyed but i liked the lofi sound of it..
Whatever is causing it ... its related to the echo repeat parameter...


24bitDelScks;-)2.pch2
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
I can very well imagine Rob to be fed up, IMO its not just this thread, there is too much negativism in general towards Clavia as if people forget what a wonderfull instrument the G2 is.


Hey, I own two G2X and have my eye on an extra G2 engine. How "negative" is that?

I repeatedly made a point of how much I love the G2. Hey, I'm completely dependent on this thing!

Throughout my synth career, I bought (new) an NL2, two NL3s and a NE2 rack. I sold them only because of the G2X.

I will check out the Nord Stage soon too, as I need a new gigging axe (my old one is getting a bit rickety).

During the last year, I've hipped many of my musician friends to the Clavia stuff in general and the G2 in particular. I can name at least five people who bought Clavia gear because I specifically recommended it.

I think I'm a pretty good Clavia customer.


Pertaining the delay issue, I said I rest my case. I only want to point out that I am fully aware of the possible workarounds to obtain a true 24bit delay. I'm not a dumb patcher.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funny, it almost seems as if some people feel personally attacked by me writing about having experienced certain feelings on reading this thread, what a wonderfull world.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jan,

I don't feel attacked. I just wanted to make a point about my positive stance toward Clavia and the G2. I guess I should use emoticons more. Sorry about that.

There seems to be some negative vibe in this thread. I don't understand it, and I don't feel part of it. I never felt attacked by anyone. I'm very sorry that Rob is fed up with things. That was never my intention

I bash the 16bit delays for the reasons given, and Rob disagrees with me, but that isn't a problem. At least not for me.

We all love the G2, and that force is stronger than any disagreements on details.

(imo)

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3phase



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rob wrote:

I tried to create a realistic situation, one that would show the practical difference in normal use of 16-bit versus 24-bit delay lines by using a normal oscilllator output level, by a pretty straightforward patching technique. Not a situation that one would typically always try to avoid. Do I now have to prove that when a 24 bit signal is divided by a factor of four milllion we do really need 32 bits of delay memory?


And in reply to that passage again... As i said you got it wrong...

Of cause your 24 bit delay has a higher resolution than a 16 bit one...

I wanted to see/hear that higher resolution... therefore i brought it more to the extreme. In your realistic setting there was no fx from the 16/24bit switch... So you prooved that there is no difference on standard levels..
but i thought your patch was also made also to show that there is 24 bit processing possible with the delaylines...
But this only gets audioable when you push it to the boundarys...
In my first modified version you can here the additional 8 bits well...
I only posted the patch because i wondered why the pure LSB sound differed so much from the 24 bit signal.
I had the idea, that when the signal level gets so low that you only can hear it in 24 bit mode, the LSB signal gets identical to the 24 bit one .
Even when the 24 to 16 bit switching gives the expected results i wasnt sure if the very rough pure LSB signal was correct or shows a little bug in the patch...
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
I can very well imagine Rob to be fed up, IMO its not just this thread, there is too much negativism in general towards Clavia as if people forget what a wonderfull instrument the G2 is.


For some reason the G2 is partly being communicated as being an unfinished instrument. That might cause confusion. Another matter is that the wide range of modules in the G2 invites to some seriously wild ideas and at times the tinkering can mess up both thought processes and the patch. The very nature of this instrument, being digital, doesn´t improve this much. However, nothing of this makes the G2 bad or Clavia into a hive of evil madness. Way back with the Moog modular, people tended to ask for more or less sensible additions and tweaks on the original design. Some of these were of course partly motivated by misunderstandings and faulty patch ideas.



One important point to make is that struggling with a patch does not mean that the frustration is really about the instrument itself. -And problems percieved to be within the very core of the design should be seen in a wider context. That is what I think Rob has been trying to stress.



I have tried to reread this thread a couple of times, and it reminds me of similar discussions about other advanced pieces of gear. I have seen and participated in similar discussions about the Roland 100 modules, the PPG Wave suite, the Korg PS series and ..believe it or not.. : analog spring reverbs.

The G2 is a very much like the Wave 2.3 in the sense that what you have right now is what you have right now. Percieved limitations in the instrument might not really be truly restricting. Hoping for an upgrade shouldn`t kill the joy of owning a amazing tool. One important quality of the product is that it isn´t really like anything else out there.

Anyway, a discussion of "features, methods and concepts" can always lead to a bit of frustration.

I guess none of us really are ever expecting to see the perfect modular synth. Modular synthesis tends to induce ideas and insights while we are busy patching. I know many will judge an "unfinished" instrument design to be an utterly disgusting product, but then no modular system is really ever completely finished and in this lies a promise of even more good stuff to come.. soon.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Funny, it almost seems as if some people feel personally attacked by me writing about having experienced certain feelings on reading this thread, what a wonderfull world.


Perhaps I was taking it in a too general way, but I realy have a issue with the word "negativism" in the context I preceived.

In many contexts critisism is used in a very negative way; critisim is often traded like compliments are; "I love your dress", "you have a nice car" or "I wish you wouldn't pick your nose right before dinner", "well you clip your toenails watching tv and i think that's disgusting too".

I think critisism can be very positive, at least far more positive then a unspoken social rule that certain parties are above critisism because we all love other aspects of those parties.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
The very nature of this instrument, being digital, doesn´t improve this much.


I agree with this, but I also feel the reverse holds true too.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:

There seems to be some negative vibe in this thread. I don't understand it


It seems to be there indeed and I think to see it in other Clavia related threads as well, not always, sometimes, a bit often to my taste.

But I do not understand it either, I hoped that signaling it might be considered to be a positive contribution here.

Thanks for your words Tim, I was getting sad a bit before those.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
The very nature of this instrument, being digital, doesn´t improve this much.


I agree with this, but I also feel the reverse holds true too.



Yes, this is true. You can look at this both ways.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:


Anyway, a discussion of "features, methods and concepts" can always lead to a bit of frustration.

.


Usually my girlfriends run occasionally in this situation when we run into some other e-musicans Smile
Under normal circumstances i find such discussions usefull.
In the end this one will be usefull aswell.
Exept the a bit loud passages there was something like a wishlist thing going..based on critics of the delay of 1.4.
I think clavia planed this as an interim update that just adds something to the editor that will be IMO be a very usefull addition.
I wouldnt be surprised if the nordstage is responsible for the delays...
Maybe 1.4 and 2.0 will come in a relativ small distance...
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

The G2 is a very much like the Wave 2.3 in the sense that what you have right now is what you have right now. Percieved limitations in the instrument might not really be truly restricting. Hoping for an upgrade shouldn`t kill the joy of owning a amazing tool.


I don't know that Wave thingy I'm affraid, but for the G2 indeed you have what you have, it is pretty unique what you have, and patching it and investigating it will lead you into unbelievable results.

It doesn't help a bit to complain about "this not present", "that not hifi", or whatever, it's far more interesting to see what can be done, it is what it is ... and when you want to complain, really want to .. an upgrade will only give you more reasons to do so, not less.

Hmm, should I have written this ?

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
..but for the G2 indeed you have what you have, it is pretty unique what you have, and patching it and investigating it will lead you into unbelievable results.

It doesn't help a bit to complain about "this not present", "that not hifi", or whatever, it's far more interesting to see what can be done, it is what it is ... and when you want to complain, really want to .. an upgrade will only give you more reasons to do so, not less.


I guess you are making my point there.

Very Happy


12 years ago I was trying to buy back my AKS from the guy who bought it from me years earlier. However, he had another buyer willing to spend far more. I gave up on that deal, but to my amazement Trygve, the AKS owner, later told me that this eager bidder first had bought it, then he came back a day later and asked for the money back. The reason for returning it was that the AKS didn´t have midi.
If you ask me, adding midi to an AKS wouldn´t really have made it "better".. but what do I know?
Shocked

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Did you get the AKS back?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nope Crying or Very sad

Trygve had for some reason kept the AKS in his car. I guess he had planned to either bring it over to my place or whatever. Anyway, someone broke into his car. Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
The reason for returning it was that the AKS didn´t have midi
Shocked Shocked Shocked Some people are unbelievable.

About this topic and the supposed negative attitude towards Clavia: I think it's a human nature thing (although regrettible) that there's is usually more discussion about stuff that isn't as it should be / as expected / as one individual would like it than there is praise about the good aspects of the matter. And it's been said before; a G2 is a kind of girlfriend. You complain about her to your friends, but make love to her in privacy Wink

Although there might be a good bit of attention for (supposed) bugs, waiting times for new updates and other non-uplifting topics, I still feel the G2 is appreciated highly here. And it's certainly not all negative here. I myself check in every day to check the latest posts and hope to learn new things, and I enjoy doing so.

I sincerely hope noone is unsubbing the forum, let's just hope that it regarded merely this specific thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
12 years ago I was trying to buy back my AKS from the guy who bought it from me years earlier.

[img]DELETED IMAGE[/img]
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
do you mean this one Question

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