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kmmcdonald
Joined: Oct 08, 2005 Posts: 22 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:28 am Post subject:
NM1 vs. G2 audio quality |
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I have had a Nord Modular for several years, and have thoroughly enyoyed it. Now, I am considering a decision whether to go with "real" analog, or to upgrade to the G2X. No virtual analog in my experience, no matter how good, seems to match the smootheness and weight of the sound of a real analog synthesizer. As much as I like my Nord Modular (which is presently my main machine), it has always sounded a little brittle and rough, with an unimpressive low end.
The bottom line is that I am weighing a choice between the G2X and a Studio Electronics Omega-8. Unfortunately, I am unable to audition the G2X in my area. So, my question is this:
How does the sound of the original NM and the G2X compare with each other? Is the G2X any smoother? Is the low end any more solid?
thanks _________________ Keith M in AZ |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:31 am Post subject:
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If the Studio Electronics suits your needs then I think it's no contest; immediately get that one, I think it's one of the best sounding synths you can currently get. _________________ Kassen |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:01 pm Post subject:
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Yes, the SE Omega 8 is excellent. It is truly one of the best sounding synths of its kind. Only you can decide if this pretty substantial investment makes sense to you though. You have read the SOS review of the SEO8?. It is quite interesting and i think it describes the product very well.
I think it is fair to say that the sonic differences between the NM-1 and the G2 are slight but some will say that the G-2 isn´t really an upgrade/improvement rather than an instrument with its own sonic character. If you are expecting a seriously beefed up NM-1, then the G-2 isn´t quite that. The G2 is great though. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject:
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I should add that I am not sure the SEO8 is what you need. You might just as well get a better fat bass from a less expensive decide. The Voyager rack?
The NM-1 doesn´t lack bass at all, and it is fairly easy to set up simple vintage sounding patches that will play well on a PA.
If you need oldish liveish bass sounds you might want to actually record the bass lines off a PA in your studio. This is the standard way of recording analog synths anyway.
You can get great results with old PA gear that will add rattling and driver distortion / breakups to the sounds. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:40 pm Post subject:
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The sound of the NM and the G2 is directly related to the patch. If you haven't been able to create patches with your NM classic that satisfy you, you may not find the G2 any better, but the G2 does have delay and reverb modules that are quite good, IMHO. I've have a vintage Moog Modular and I've played with Moog Voyagers. IMHO again, the G2 can generate comparable sounds.
The NMs are good for patchers who can work with them to get exactly what sounds they want. If you aren't into that, then you are stuck with downloading other peoples patches which probaby aren't gone to cut the muster.
If you like to sweep oscillators up and down several octaves with a knob, then you won't care for the 128 resolution of the G2s knobs. To me this is the fundamental reason to get a real analog synth. If you call this smoothness, then it is really something you won't get on the G2. The high resolution knobs on the Alesis ION are much better in that department. Have you tried one of those? _________________ --Howard
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7om
Joined: Sep 23, 2004 Posts: 29 Location: SF Bay Area, Calif.
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject:
Re: NM1 vs. G2 audio quality |
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kmmcdonald wrote: | No virtual analog in my experience, no matter how good, seems to match the smootheness and weight of the sound of a real analog synthesizer.
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Have you heard the Arturia Moog Modular V soft synth emulation of the Moog Modular? That is the most impressive emulation of analog gear I have heard. Definitely has the weight of the analog gear. That said, my G2 is my goto synth because it has a much better workflow and doesn't eat up cycles on my computer. |
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kmmcdonald
Joined: Oct 08, 2005 Posts: 22 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject:
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Let me address some points made above:
I exclusively program my own sounds; that's why I love the NM. I believe that no better sound creation lab exists. However, I have been unsuccessful in equalling the fullness of my Matrix-1000's (even though the M-1000 is a pretty minor analog synthesizer in my book), altough with the use of the NM EQ and filter bank (which I understand that the G2 does not have), I have come close. On the other hand, the NM has a precision in its sound that allows it to sit comfortably in mixes, making my Arturia MMV sould sloppy by comparison. In terms of SW synthesizers, I also use (although less often):
Arturia MMV, Cameleon 5000, Virtual Sampler, and Virsyn Cube 2. Also, I use a somewhat high end sound card (Lynx L22), so. I believe that my lack of enthusiasm for SW synthesizers can't be blamed on a poor sound card. Virsyn Cube 2 is my favorite by far, and it seems to sound the nicest, followed by VS. MMV is fun, but buggy. I have to be constantly on guard for a particular bug where it just starts blasting distorted noise at ear-shattering levels. I NEVER use MMV when using headphones. But MMV still sounds digital to me. C5000 sounds quite poor; I don't understand the positive reviews its sound has received.
I have indeed read the SOS review of the SEO8, which gave me pause. I usually consider SOS reviews quite reliable, but their review for C5000 said that it sounds great, and it is clearly second class when compared to the similar Cube 2. So, I don't know what to make of the SOS review for the O8. Balancing it, however, is the SE user community, which is more positive about SE products (including the O8) than any other user commujnity that I have encountered. I have my eye on the SEO8 over the Moog Voyager, because I really prefer a polyhonic machine.
However, from the comments here, for w2hich I am grateful, it seems that the G2 does not offer an obvious improvement in fidelity over the original NM, so I'm probably better off with the SEO8, which is the present incarnation of the analog poly machine that I set out 20 years ago to acquire but could never possibly afford until now.
Keith _________________ Keith M in AZ |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:59 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: |
If you like to sweep oscillators up and down several octaves with a knob, then you won't care for the 128 resolution of the G2s knobs. |
I read this a dozen times now and I still don't get it.
Let's get this straight; if we devide a arbitrary range into 128 steps then the larger the range, the larger the step, right? Wouldn't a tendency to do sweeps over multiple ocataves make the G2's knobs as bad (without further processing, at least) as any other MIDI based system? _________________ Kassen |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:14 am Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: | mosc wrote: |
If you like to sweep oscillators up and down several octaves with a knob, then you won't care for the 128 resolution of the G2s knobs. |
I read this a dozen times now and I still don't get it.
Let's get this straight; if we devide a arbitrary range into 128 steps then the larger the range, the larger the step, right? Wouldn't a tendency to do sweeps over multiple ocataves make the G2's knobs as bad (without further processing, at least) as any other MIDI based system? |
Yes, Howard is saying that the G2 knobs are not good for sweeping, because of the steps.
That SE08 looks great, that basic design has served us well for the last 20-30 years. |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:02 am Post subject:
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Whoops. My bad. Got confused about "care for" and "care about".
Is that use of "care for" proper grammar or street language? Can you only use it in American or also in English? _________________ Kassen |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:04 am Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: | Is that use of "care for" proper grammar or street language? Can you only use it in American or also in English? |
It is used hear in NZ (UK English) but not so much by the young. |
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Unfed
Joined: May 11, 2004 Posts: 200 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:28 am Post subject:
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yep, 'i don't think you'll care for the knobs' would be similar to 'i don't think you'll like/enjoy the knobs'. seems more proper grammar, or a more 'polite' way of saying. _________________ SoundCloud |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:34 am Post subject:
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Hmmm.
How about this - 128 steps is ok for some purposes, like envelopes and filter resonance controls, but it is really terrible for oscillator sweep controls. It's a problem the G2 shares with all other MIDI controlled instruments. I wish the NMs had at least one front panel control that was high resolution. _________________ --Howard
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:01 am Post subject:
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kmmcdonald wrote: | I have indeed read the SOS review of the SEO8, which gave me pause. I usually consider SOS reviews quite reliable, but their review for C5000 said that it sounds great, and it is clearly second class when compared to the similar Cube 2. So, I don't know what to make of the SOS review for the O8. Balancing it, however, is the SE user community, which is more positive about SE products (including the O than any other user commujnity that I have encountered. I have my eye on the SEO8 over the Moog Voyager, because I really prefer a polyhonic machine. |
The C5000 is great fun and I like some of the ideas behind the design, but I agree with you: It doesn´t really sound truly great.
SOS is fairly reliable, but I have often disagreed about some of the conclusions. As for the SEO8, I guess it all comes down to the design philosophy. The reviewer is struggling a bit with that one. However, it does truly sound great. That said, there isn´t really one distinct vintage analog synth sound and the SEO8 doesn´t really attempt to copy Moogs, Oberheims or what have you . It is simply a modern analog synth with its own character. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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AngusHastie
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 136 Location: London, England
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:39 am Post subject:
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Sorry - dumb question, but "under the hood" doesn't the G2 subdivide each step into lots of tiny steps so the sweep can be smoothed out if you control the pitch using a constant value module (assigned to a panel knob) fed through a glide module and into the pitch input of an osc? |
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Near Wageningen, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:51 am Post subject:
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Angus: definitely! However, you can't get the value to be stable on an in-between setting; maybe that's Mosc's problem. Also, the hassle of adding an extra module (editor!) may be problematic for people (?). |
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:03 am Post subject:
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Yes, you can smooth the 128 steps, but it will always stop at one of the 128 places, usually a pitch I don't want.
To be sure, this isn't a show stopper for me because I generally use lots of FM and stuff. Usually I never notice it, but every now and then it is a heart breaker, if you know what I mean. _________________ --Howard
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Yes, you can smooth the 128 steps, but it will always stop at one of the 128 places, usually a pitch I don't want.
To be sure, this isn't a show stopper for me because I generally use lots of FM and stuff. Usually I never notice it, but every now and then it is a heart breaker, if you know what I mean. |
Well, you should see that as a feature rather than a problem. I chose to accept the obvious problem of the Wave´s wavetable stepping as a feature. What one would want would of course be a blend. Stuff like this adds to the character of the instrument, no matter how annoying.. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:18 am Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | Stuff like this adds to the character of the instrument, no matter how annoying.. |
_________________ --Howard
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:23 pm Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Hmmm.
How about this - 128 steps is ok for some purposes, like envelopes and filter resonance controls, but it is really terrible for oscillator sweep controls. It's a problem the G2 shares with all other MIDI controlled instruments. I wish the NMs had at least one front panel control that was high resolution. |
One way of dealing with the stepping is of cource smoothing it out, but perhaps it would be nice to have a extra option for MIDI cc controlled parameters to S&H them at note on. THat will instantly take care of all glitches but of cource it comes at a price.... _________________ Kassen |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | mosc wrote: | Yes, you can smooth the 128 steps, but it will always stop at one of the 128 places, usually a pitch I don't want.
To be sure, this isn't a show stopper for me because I generally use lots of FM and stuff. Usually I never notice it, but every now and then it is a heart breaker, if you know what I mean. |
Well, you should see that as a feature rather than a problem. I chose to accept the obvious problem of the Wave´s wavetable stepping as a feature. What one would want would of course be a blend. Stuff like this adds to the character of the instrument, no matter how annoying.. |
Yeah, and it can be very musical if used right. I once spoke to this guy who enjoyed Yamaha digital synths because of this "feature". I can't rememember which on it was but some new synth can quantise the stepping to the midi clock. For systems with lots of feedback the stepping can introduce noise that will act as a exciter, allowing you to "bow" the whoe thing with a midi fader too, quite cool, I think. _________________ Kassen |
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Afro88
Joined: Jun 20, 2004 Posts: 701 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | I wish the NMs had at least one front panel control that was high resolution. |
They do, the mod wheels, but the software can't interpolate between 23 and 24 for example, so in this case they're practically useless as high resolution controllers... There's just something about tweaking stepless analogue knobs, especially for audio rate modulation stuff where it sounds "just right" in a certain place which more than likely falls somewhere between two semitone steps.
Isn't there a post somewhere that rob made which explains how to use high resolution nrpn's to control parameters of the G2? |
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Near Wageningen, the Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:25 am Post subject:
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Afro88 wrote: | They do, the mod wheels, but the software can't interpolate between 23 and 24 for example, so in this case they're practically useless as high resolution controllers... |
But if there's a modulation input on the 'target module', there's no problem, right? You can use the wheel output from the device module into a mod input. Or is the 128-step problem still present in this configuration (have only an engine so can't check)? |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:32 am Post subject:
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MIDI Modulation (Mod wheel) is limited to 7 bits, just like the other standard controllers. MIDI Pitch Bend is a 2 data byte command with sign and up to 13 bits. unfortunately Clavia have chosen to only implement response to the MSByte. Making it also useless (but it does seem to have some smoothing, specially close to center). |
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Chet
Joined: Nov 19, 2004 Posts: 231 Location: Lititz,PA,USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:12 am Post subject:
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I've had both the NM and G2, and I much prefer the sound of the G2. I think it's smoother, with a cleaner high end. |
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