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 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Impeccable Keyboard Timing
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Realtim quantification? Cannot this be done in KeyKit? You are a KeyKit user already, aren´t you?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, Keykit can do this and Tim has helped develop some routines to do it, but the G2 seems to be better at it If you reread my first post in this thread I mentioned Keykit. I was just wondering if there was something I haven't tried yet.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen wrote:
... I was under the impression that realtime quantisation was standard by now?

Does anyone know any programs that do that? I haven't come across one.


Unless I'm terribly mistaken Live does so by default (I think I turned it off). Live5 also has a rather unusual, rather powerfull arpergiator.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tried out a demo version of Live version 4 but it didn't do too much of MIDI processing as far as I could tell. I'm downloading a 5 demo now. Maybe this will be more suitable.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

5 Has more midi processing, but this isn't in some internal plugin thingy, I think this was simply in one of the settings. Live normally quantises all triggering of clips too.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen wrote:
... I was under the impression that realtime quantisation was standard by now?

Does anyone know any programs that do that? I haven't come across one.


Mosc, you're joking aren't you? Logic, Pro Tools, Cubase, Ableton, DP4, Akai etc etc- they all do that. Some are better at it than others mind.

I used to own an Akai MPC which would quantise automatically on recording notes. At first I thought it wasn't doing it- but then found out that it was. I also own Logic- but recently have been doing less and less sequencing with it because I don't like its quantise. Okay, you can import groove templates, but applying it afterwards is never the same as auto quantise imo.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen, I just tried the Live arpeggitor. It is very nice for an arpegiator, but what I'm talking about isn't arpeggiation. Good suggestion though, and I'm going to play with this in the next few weeks. It looks a bit more powerful than version 4.

Tom, I haven't used all of those DAWs. I do use Sonar. I have used Logic. DAWs are good for recording. At least in Sonar, the quantization is done on playback, not on recording. The notes are usually recorded exactly as played (or at least as closely as exact as possible). I'm using quantization in real-time. Maybe I'm missing something with the other DAWs. Tom, would you run ProTools to process MIDI for a live performance? Yikes!

I could see using Abelton Live in this manner but it isn't a conventional DAW. It appears to be intended for interactive real-time operation.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had some good moments with that arp. You can stack them and you can take that scale mapper thingy to the result for some nice algortimic stuff. I wish Live had more of that kind of thing to aply to CC's.

Also; taking the arp and folowing it with a carefully set "impulse" drum sampler thingy can do nice rithmic paterns. Good fun for a few hours of wasted time....

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Tom, would you run ProTools to process MIDI for a live performance? Yikes!



I'm trying to think of a good analogy for that- but I can't!

The G2 is the best midi-processor I've yet seen in terms of ease of use- but although I've been listening to a lot of music recently, I haven't made any for quite a while now- It takes up too much time!

Listening to 'Fur Immer' by "Neu!" right now- another one of my treasured krautrock tracks. Just listened to the whole of Deluxe by Harmonia too. Not a midi processor in sight!!
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Harmonia!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Harmonia!


Of course :) "Deluxe" and "Muzik von Harmonia" rank up there as 2 of my all time favourite recordings. Both very different too.

Actually if you think about it, tracks like 'Notre Dame' are very sequencer-like, but of course are played by hand (by Roedelius)- there is no computer or sequencer in sight. There is something very organic about this- very human.

Deluxe is definely one to recommend to those who are trying to play by hand- and in time.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

About my choice of posting placement, I just felt like at the time that this forum was the best choice. I suppose that I could have posted under How To, except that I hadn't even noticed that section. Next time I will find the MOST approriate placement for my post.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OT: Hans-Joachim Roedelius was in Neu!? I'm a big fan of his solo work (especially his piano playing), and I've been trying to find stuff he made besides Cluster. Now I have to check up on Neu! (should have done that already anyway...)

Thanks! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

(somewhat OT)
This must be beginer's luck for the newcomer day.
I have been struggling and frustrated with this very problem.
I've learned way more from these last two pages than I expected!
Can't wait to get back to "the lab" and get to work !

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yay, LSD, cool. Do report back with any interesting findings, I firmly believe that this field is still so open and unexplored on a concious level that any and all finding are as worthwhile and valid as the next theory.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well Kassen,
After quite sometime, I must accept that maybe a sense of timing just never too hold in me.
I am resorting to synchronizing off-time events in Steinberg Cubase.
But then it sounds un-naturally impeccable, does that make sense?
Ah well, more tomorrows to explore.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As a professional pianist/keyboardist with a reputation for a very good keyboard timing, I can only tell you this: It's dogged, hard work! Actually, it's the hardest part of keyboard playing, IMHO. And I spend hours, daily, on honing this craft (and have done so for several years). There is no end to this. You work on it until you die.

You have to want to work at it, too. Not everybody does. I started on just trying to play one sixteenth of a bar "in the pocket", as I like to say. Just work on really nailing that one sixteenth! That alone can take several days. Then you start to build on that, add more sixteenths, different rhythms, etc. It takes months, literally. Until you are really improvising with that precision can take years. I've been at it for some and still see alot of room of improvement. As I say, you work on it until you die.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...i've found that live "looping" (i use a repeater, but there are lots of options) is more instructive about timing than any other excercise i have ever tried....it's fairly easy to think you are playing in the pocket in the moment, but hearing it repeated back at you immediately can dispel such illusions Smile . i think it is the immediacy that counts here.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How would a "real time" quantizer correct a note which you hit late?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
How would a "real time" quantizer correct a note which you hit late?


If you hit it late, the gets played on the next opportunity.

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Done Studio



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is another thing you could do...it is more like a "cheat" but actually it is purely technical from a computer standpoint.

Since midi timing varies off of clock settings, processors, programs etc that you are using it for IE: Reason, Live, Native Instruments etc...

Record what you are playing using an analog aux out into your computer (if you have an analog out) I use a Yamaha keyboard that gives me my midi besides 700 different polyphonic sounds. Then since I cannot play worth beans... I take and mix my recording in manually and set my timing by adjusting the wave by either looping or beat mapping. I also can quantize on the fly depending on the program I use. Then if all else fails a little cutting of the wave Laughing goes a long way.

However in reality, a little off time or beat can be just the thing to give your piece more flavor...

Just my 2 cents.

s/ Done

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