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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Bugs
Please verify this bug
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject:  Please verify this bug
Subject description: notorious delay line weirdness possibly detected!
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As some of you might know, the delay lines have been bothering me since I bought my G2s two years ago. Evil or Very Mad

There was always something strange going on with them when using them for high accuracy stuff like physical modelling.

For a long time I believed that the 16 bit dynamic depth was the culprit, but somehow that didn't scan right. The artefacts I was repeatedly confronted with sounded very different from the kind of typical harmonic distortions you get from low dynamic resolution. And anyhow, 16 bits would still be good enough. Proof is the CombfFilter module, which is based on the same 16 bit memory, but doesn't produce those artefacts and sounds much much better for physical modelling applications.

But using the comb filter module all the time is restrictive in its own right, as it uses considerable more DSP and only offers logarithmic delay length response (very convenient for some purposes, less so for others).

I'm currently working on a patch similar to AAS string studio. It was initially based on comb filters, but I started breaking it down to delays (for DSP/polyphony reasons) and ran into those same old gremlins again. Evil or Very Mad But I think I got them this time.

Please try out the attached patch. If you get what I got, then you should hear a strange cyclic rustling coming out of delay line 2. But please notice that no audio is running into delay line 2! Shocked There is, however, audio running into delay line 1 (whose output isn't going anywhere). Turn off audio into delay 1, and delay 2 becomes silent too.

Or, turn off constant modulation value going into the time mod input of delay 2, and it also becomes silent.

I suspect that something funky is going on with the readout pointers, causing delay 2 to sometimes fetch a few samples of what is in delay 1.

Could you please verify this.

thanks,
tim


Bugreport 220506.pch2
 Description:
notorious delay line weirdness possibly detected!

Download
 Filename:  Bugreport 220506.pch2
 Filesize:  1.35 KB
 Downloaded:  792 Time(s)


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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yep, I think you have certainly identified a problem. My G2X V1.4 does exactly what you say it does.

I moved this to the Bugs forum... Idea

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, even the demo version does it. Shocked

So, good that you moved it to the bugs section, where it belongs now.

Ha! This is a personal victory for me. Twisted Evil ! FINALLY, I found what was going on all the time! Ah, the relief.

But -will Clavia ever fix it? Confused

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cebec



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i can confirm it on the Demo, too...
i would e-mail Clavia, and link them to this thread, perhaps...
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, at least I can go on with the patching now, knowing that it's not my fault.

I'll have to live with the artefacts though, until Clavia comes up with a fix. Rolling Eyes

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Chet



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:06 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's excellent detective work, Tim. Clavia should be able to track it down pretty easily now.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Getting the same sound on the demo version here too.

Actually I quite like this sound- it reminds me of the noises/ feeling that you get when you stand under major electricity grid overhead powerlines!!

There are many quirks in hardware modulars and some would even argue that these quirks add character.

This has always been my complaint with the digital stuff- that it's too perfect.

Oh well- well spotted anyway Smile

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

This has always been my complaint with the digital stuff- that it's too perfect.


Yes, this is perfect. Perfectly awful.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Chet wrote:
That's excellent detective work, Tim. Clavia should be able to track it down pretty easily now.


In case somebody informs them... You cant expect them to scan the forum regulary..
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
.

This has always been my complaint with the digital stuff- that it's too perfect.



Its not perfect..its just simple...
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't need the sound of "electricity grid overhead powerlines" in my waveguides, thank you. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing
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ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Please verify this bug
Subject description: notorious delay line weirdness possibly detected!
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tim wrote:

I suspect that something funky is going on with the readout pointers, causing delay 2 to sometimes fetch a few samples of what is in delay 1.


Something got a bit over-optimized I guess ... when you throw in another unconnected delay the sound will stop (well, just to be sure, on the modified version that I have now) throwing in other modules or removing ones changes the character of the sound sometimes.

There have in the past been examples of this effect involving other (non delay) modules (that got solved).

Good work of you to pinpoint this with such a simple patch !

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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice find. Could also be some memory which is not cleared fully Wink
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah! Good work spotting that. I've run into this before as well, with a feedback loop over a delay that started living all by itself without any input when the delay length attenuator was modified by a MIDI send module.

/Stefan
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know if this the same bug but I find it extremely disappointing. I really love Tim's NL3 unison patch but I can't use it because there is some background noise going on when the delays are modulated. This is a really big bug! It shortens the (quality) sound possibilities by a largue amount, as the modulated delays are now useless, in the quality sense.

I'm posting this patch wich shows clearly the background noise I'm refering to. Sorry if this topic has been discussed before.

By the way, this is my first patch Smile sorry, a bad start.


delay noise.pch2
 Description:
weird delay noise

Download
 Filename:  delay noise.pch2
 Filesize:  1.83 KB
 Downloaded:  805 Time(s)


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Axiom Crux



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So can someone at clavia fix this already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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drapdap



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Axiom Crux wrote:
So can someone at clavia fix this already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


i don't think so, since they went a bit of church organ, you know...
they miseralby failed with the second run of expansion boards too.
seems to me we are boiling in our soup and Nord couldn't care less.

it's not that it bugfixes didn't happen, nor the dsp board, but the way they
don't communicate at all, at least they'd mail or tell somebody like Jan that
sorry folks it's not going to happen, or something, just say something...

For me it's not the G2 who died but nord keyboards.

Flames off...

róbert
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Chrono



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

that bug has been bothering me as well. it took me some time in the beginning before i really noticed it. But it seems to produce unwanted noise and sounds low quality. and this should still be fixed as i think clavia (nordkeyboards) is a high quality product range..


shall we just collect Signatures from everyone and send the mail to the nords chief. and just bother them a bit untill they cant go around it.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Chrono wrote:
that bug has been bothering me as well. it took me some time in the beginning before i really noticed it. But it seems to produce unwanted noise and sounds low quality. and this should still be fixed as i think clavia (nordkeyboards) is a high quality product range..


This bug compromises the chorus module (makes it unusable in a professional recording session if mixed upfront), as well as DIY chorus/delay stuff.

Interestingly though, I've not run into the bug when using the delay module for elastic audio stuff (which I'm very relieved about).

But in terms of audio fidelity, it's the worst bug on the G2 IMO.

It's definetely got to do with the delay module memory allocation and/or the readout pointers. Probably just some wrong scaling or offsetting. In other words: just sloppy coding. Laughing According to Rob, the delay modules are still in alpha state, and never got finalised at all. A high quality product. Confused Laughing

All in all, it's obvious that Clavia overtaxed themselves when developing the G2. Because, when you look at it, the G2 system was a herculean task. And when they saw the low sales figures rolling in, and the resulting lack of ROI, they probably had to put a lid on it immediately. I can understand that. It's a business after all.

What I don't understand is the lack of communication. They could at least have gone public, saying "OK guys, we are very sorry, but we simply cannot afford to finalise it and deliver the remaining features we had publicly announced. (remember those physical models? Wink ) There will be no more updates, no bugfixes, nothing. Take it as it is or leave it." In that manner, people could have decided if they still wanted to go along with it, or not (I probably would have anyway). Then at least nobody would have felt let down.

I still believe the G2 could have been a top seller if Clavia understood something about marketing. But how can you know about these things if you refuse to communicate with users, actual and prospective? Wink The omission of preset documentation especially was the downfall of the G2. Not everybody can read a signal flow, and without understanding what's going on, a preset isn't really useful. Hell, even I never understood how most of the presets operated or what the assigned parameters (often not even named) actually did. I never bothered with them, not once.

I think that this downright refusal of communication and exchange with the user base is something a company only can afford if they release their products totally complete, finalised and bug-free. Otherwise I find it quite a disrespectful, if not even loathsome way to do business.

But it doesn't matter anymore. The products Clavia produces nowadays are simple and foolproof, so no communication with users is necessary. Turn on, select a piano patch, done. Even I can do that. Laughing Which is fine. I think the NordStage and all the other newer Clavia products are really fantastic.

The arena of the gigging keyboardist is one of the last resorts for hardware manufacturers, so I can totally understand Clavia focusing on that field entirely. I think it's a good strategy, and their products are successful because they really are good. I therefore doubt we will ever see another synth product from Clavia. The competition against software is just to big. In the pre-DAW-age, a NordLead or a NordRack was almost a must in the studio. All that demand has vanished. And most gigging keyboardists are not synthesists, but preset users (which I don't mean disrespectfully). The NordWave was Clavia's attempt to fuse the NordLead synth concept with the rompler-preset concept. The result was so-so. The lack of multisampling, keyboard splitting, multichannel-FX, only 18 (Shocked) voices etc., meant that it couldn't hold a candle against true rompler preset machines. The NordLead fans on the other hand missed the lack of 4 slots, individual outputs, filter FM, only 3 morph groups etc. -all in all a step back from the NL3.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just want to confirm that I've identified the bug too, after spending more time with my G2. It's even in some of the preset sounds that Clavia delivers with the G2. Check for instance the 'G3' organ emulation patch. This has similar noise generated in the leslie emulation section. Strangely enough, only audible on the left channel.
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