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A very brief book review:
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
In isolation, outside of any context, no data set is a pattern.

Consider the closed ordered set [ 65, 32, 119, 111, 114, 100 ]. In isolation it is meaningless and is not a pattern. In the context of the ASCII it translates to “A word” and as such might be used as a pattern for searching text for that phrase. The closed ordered data set [1,0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0] is also meaningless and not a pattern in isolation and outside of any context. It may, however, be treated as the context for the pattern [1,0,0] so we may say that though it is not a pattern it exhibits a pattern.


This makes perfect sense.

As for the set [ 65, 32, 119, 111, 114, 100 ] in isolation it would be meaningless indeed even though it could be possible to derive meaning or relations when analysed within another context. In muscial terms a single object like this, a pattern, makes no sense before its universe is introduced. The univers is of course the music .

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm… after Blue Hell’s post I am beginning to think we may have to look for the brother of a one armed pianist. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Will some goats do for now?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Will some goats do for now?
Only if their goat herd is Wittgenstein.

Edit:
Added link

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
Will some goats do for now?
Only if their goat herd is Wittgenstein.


Let me get back to you on that one.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
bachus wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
Will some goats do for now?
Only if their goat herd is Wittgenstein.


Let me get back to you on that one.


I know a guy who is an Elvis impersonator and he is known to throw a quite decent Adorno at parties.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I know a guy who is an Elvis impersonator and he is known to throw a quite decent Adorno at parties.


If you mean Theodor W. Adorno:

Wow! I wasn't familiar with this guys work. Interesting to the point of revelation. Wonder what cross fertilization/transmission (if any) there was with/to Susanne K. Langer? Wow! Gees, more books to add to my must read list.

thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, that is the Adorno I am talking about. Over here in Europe he has been quite a popular guy for some time. And yes, Wittgenstein is also a hot one.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Yes, that is the Adorno I am talking about. Over here in Europe he has been quite a popular guy for some time. And yes, Wittgenstein is also a hot one.


Yea but Wittgenstein was a mere technician, if I may say so. I only brought him up because the pattern issue seemed a bit tangled in definition and meanings.

Adorno seems to be looking at issues directly relevant to the experience of life itself--at least from what I can tell from a three page blurb and what I intuit about the nature of human existence. And that aspect of his views make me absolutely fascinated with what he has to say about aesthetics.

Oh, and did the goats recognize Wittgenstein from the picture?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and yet frege merely echos dante, who echoes X before hiim...


but when Witgenstein sings the blues....

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

an adornment to my previous post: and Augustine...

---

To return to the subpart of the main argument here.

Bachus: "In isolation, outside of any context, no data set is a pattern"

Blue Hell: "all ordered data sets are a pattern"

This returns to my original problem "Is a pattern that does not occur (or occurs only once) a pattern?" in some respects:

Image the following two kinds of genesis: A) a pattern developed according to a template that is unstructured internally; B) a pattern that occurs incidentally but has internal structure.

Bachus might argue that A) is a pattern if the link to the template is apparent, whereas B) cannot be a pattern (unless a context can be developed for the description of the pattern) -- am I wrong in this analysis?

Blue Hell, on the other hand, might assume that both A and B are patterns by virture of their being ordered data sets (albeit in two different ways). -- am I wrong here?

In some respects both approaches are logical and emotive, but the definition of the pattern is still limited by the perspective from which we view the pattern. A formal pattern recognising algorithm would need a context, whereas an unfiltering human might see anything as a pattern.

I think that the discrepancy here is somewhat sterile because I believe that the formal-natural distrinction is artificial. In a local context, a formal algorithm and natural pattern recognition might conceivably not be functionally different. At the same time, there may be other natural structures that come into play that make the one-to-one discussed above relationship indistinct. Hence my overlapping patterns, and sets.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps we should agree on one über-context. Let us call that one "musical composition".

As for patterns within a piece of music, a lot of the encoding or the processes used for making the music won´t ever be decoded by the listener.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
As for patterns within a piece of music, a lot of the encoding or the processes used for making the music won´t ever be decoded by the listener.


I couldn't agree more, but I suspect that this is where purely formal approaches fall down because of the tendency to look to reducing everything down to a coherent formal system. Which would be a contradiction in terms.

Our real-world natural systems are not coherent in any sense of the word, and the capabilities of humans to perceive what is around them depend entirely on what is relevant to them.

In my view, the relevance of a pattern to an individual might depend on previous experience, but it also depends on what they find relevant from an emotional perspective, causing them to react to novel phenomena (i.e. things they have not previously encountered, but are nevertheless relevant to them). In this sense, things that stick out might are those that get analysed as patterns -- and it is thus these that are patterns -- irrespective of their genesis (or any other definition of what a pattern is).

I believe that this is especially the case with music; music is a very emotive medium, and the patterns that appeal to us definitely vary from person to person. This is maybe why formal "music appreciation" often becomes a turgid exercise.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps then the “über-context” is the listener?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So far we _have_ had a solus-ipsian approach, so "Perhaps then the “über-context” is the listener?" would not be unacceptable according to the account so far.

On the other hand, music is to some extent interactional, as -- although I have argued to the contrary before -- I am still of the opinion that individuals do share at least some of the same context (being human, being of similar cultures/societies, etc.), which makes a composer's intentions somewhat apparent to the listener -- and our comprehension can hardly be described as independent of our surroundings and society.

But what I say below can be applied equally to both composer and listener; but that isn't to say that I don't think that there is much more to this. You could equally describe the many influences on the composer that caused them to find certain patterns pertinent when trying to express certain things, and the extent to which these are similar to those influences that make the listener recognise the patterns they see in the music of the composer. If there is correlation between what is intended (if this is a useful concept at all) and what is interpreted, then the mapping of influences might provide insight into the biology/society dependence of music.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Perhaps then the “über-context” is the listener?


I am not sure I would say that, but the listener is absolutely a vital part of the delivery platform.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We need to identify a state / a term / a context for the process that lies above the composition itself. This is where the composition is being created. The composition itself is not universally a product of itself and it cannot define itself 1:1 in a meaningful manner. Decoding components and structure might be revealing but it won´t tell the full story.

I think this discussion indicates that we have several leves of abstraction going on. Some are of the über kind, some are parallel to each other and some are purely happening in the delivery process. And there will be interactive processes going on here too.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brinxmat wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
As for patterns within a piece of music, a lot of the encoding or the processes used for making the music won´t ever be decoded by the listener.


I couldn't agree more, but I suspect that this is where purely formal approaches fall down because of the tendency to look to reducing everything down to a coherent formal system. Which would be a contradiction in terms.


I think we are closing in on the making of the pesto here.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I moved the topic to Composition but left a pointer in the Reviews forum. Contextually this thread plays better in the composition forum. OK?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

if you're askign me, surely
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: more to the mill…
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I add this to the mix, I haven't read it, so I can't comment on it yet.
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