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Noise into a ringmod
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject: Noise into a ringmod Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What do you get if you ring modulate noise and a sine wave?
What about pink or red noise?
The main reason I'm asking is that I'm designing the switching for my ASM2, and I can't remember whether it's worth having noise as a possible ring mod source or not.
I assume that the variations of sine/square/sawtooth/triangle are all valid as separate options for the ring mod source. If any of them sound exactly the same I'd like to know that too.
Thanking you heaps in advance for any help.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can try all that out on the free G2 demo. The G2 is a great DIY synth test bed.

Noise is a useful ring modulator carrier. The output is noise too, but it follows the envelope. You must have a crossfader on the ring mod to fade between the input and the modulator output.

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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If your ring modulator is DC coupled, you might even think of controlling CV's with it. Modulator input positive, output is non-inverted carrier signal; modulator input negative, output is inverted carrier signal.

Think of it is a voltage controlled attenuverter, with the modulator input being the control voltage input and the carrier input being the signal input.

Another nice use of a DC coupled ring modulator is as an improvised VCA - 0 to +V envelope on the modulator will act as a normal VCA. 0 to -V envelope on the modulator will act as a normal VCA, but the output phase will be inverted.

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Scott
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is an interesting question. I would guess that since the noise has really no single dominant frequency and "white" noise encompasses a good chuck of the audio band, I would venture to guess that when mixed with a sine wave, all the sums and differences appearing at the output would sound very similar to more noise with no discernable pitch. Hmmm, I will have to try this. A ring modulator is actually a "double balanced mixer" by which only frequency sums and differences appear at it's output while suppressing both input signals from appearing at the output. (F1 & F2 IN)

Thus:

Out= ((F2-F1) + (F1+F2)) + ((.00001(F1)+.00001(F2))


The second half of this simple equation just meerly accounts for any leakage through the ring modulator and the .00001 is variable. Isolation is not perfect ans some of the carrier and signal source will get through.

When mixing non-harmonically related signals, all kinds of convolution resulting in aliasing takes place thus ring modulators are most useful when mixing signals with some dominant tone.

If F1 is the noise source, then the output (Out) would be a fairly wide spectrum signal. Thus, more noise .....

I know I did not answer all the parts of your question. I will leave that up to a couple more of our members.

Tonight I will see how much egg is on my face and run white noise and sine into my Blacet Klanc Werk RM! Shocked

Hope this helps you ....
Bill
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Noise is a useful ring modulator carrier. The output is noise too, but it follows the envelope. You must have a crossfader on the ring mod to fade between the input and the modulator output.


OK, not too much egg on my face.

Hmm, yes, did not account for the envelope. Yes.

I REALLY want to get one of those Nord GX2 synthesizers. I fell in love with it at the EM06 demos that Janson was doing ....

Looks like our forum has a vast knowledge base on this unit, including yourself!

Bill


Thanks,
Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

State Machine wrote:
I would venture to guess that when mixed with a sine wave, all the sums and differences appearing at the output would sound very similar to more noise with no discernable pitch.


After trying I say "not too bad a guess", but when the noise gets colored to have more low frequencies some tone comes back in, quite usable !

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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
After trying I say "not too bad a guess", but when the noise gets colored to have more low frequencies some tone comes back in, quite usable !


Thanks.

I just finished patching a white noise source into my ring modulator and varied the sine wave modulation frequency. As I suspected, I did get noise, but, the pleasant surprise for me was that as I swept the sine source frequency, the noise took on some more interesting character in addition to your observation of coloring the noise itself! Although my results were subtle, it was usable for some interesting "wind noise" simulations. Usable also.

So yes, I say bring in the noise for selection into the ring modulator. Seems like four votes for noise thus far!! Very Happy

Bill
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
assume that the variations of sine/square/sawtooth/triangle are all valid as separate options for the ring mod source. If any of them sound exactly the same I'd like to know that too.


They all have their own character. I personally like using pulsed and sawtooth waveforms as they have heaps of harmonic content for the ring modulator to reap havoc with!! They produce nice harsh bell like tones. The sinusoids produce very soft melodic bell tones. The use of which waveform is now dependant on the musical composition you are planning. Very Happy

Have fun !!!
Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay, noise has just made it onto the ring mod bus. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe the output of the multimode filter would be a good option, specially if it self oscillates. Then you would get to pre filter the noise, saw and rectangles as well as have a good extra sine source.
I use the Ringmod a lot with both inputs from the same sine.
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Maybe the output of the multimode filter would be a good option, specially if it self oscillates. Then you would get to pre filter the noise, saw and rectangles as well as have a good extra sine source.


Good idea ! Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Okay, noise has just made it onto the ring mod bus. Smile


So let it be written, so let it be done .... Very Happy
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