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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
What´s this?
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: What´s this?
Subject description: sege peak and through gone further
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Just came across this. Not much documentation, maybe someone got something to say.
http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/schematics/serge.jpg

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Last edited by zipzap on Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Yorky



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Diode gates
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks like it might be like a Min/Max module, outputting the highest/lowest voltage on it's inputs. The G2 has one and I think I used it once Smile
You can, for example, separate the pos and neg parts of a waveform for separate processing.
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have seen min/max schematics somewhere (around here?)
Much more complex. Might as well try it. Could imagine that with this solution you get some trouble that could be solved by ideal diodes.
Do you think those two circuits could be fead by the same inputs, in parallel?

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tried the peak. Nice. works well. But what i don´t like about it is that only pos voltages are processed.
Anybody know of a shematic for something like the A-172 by doepfer?
It´s also a minmax module, but with no clipping. So you get the min or max out of several signals, no matter how they are polarized.
Would like to have one of those...

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211



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi zip zap,

Yves Usson did what you need:
http://www.yusynth.net/Modular/EN/MINMAX/index.html

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zipzap wrote:
But what i don´t like about it is that only pos voltages are processed.

The way it is connected now makes the diode connected to ground a 5th input connected to a fixed voltage of 0 V, so that will be the lowest max you'll ever see,

You could try to connect that 5th diode to -12 volt, don't know though if it will go down all the way to -12 V then.

For the Minimum circuit you could do a similar thing - tieing the 5th diode to a higher voltage than +6 V in this case.

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

With the diode going to -12 i could leave it out just the same.
Well, after some trying this came out. It´s working great. Don´t ask me why, i´m asking you...
The pot could be labled threshold. If set below the input signal you get the function i described. Making it higher the bottom of the output is cut off, till it disapears. For a min function the diodes have to be reversed. What suprised me is that the output stays a bipolar signal around 0v. I had exspected some kind of offset from the voltage applied through the pot.
For a min/max module my logic tells me that the inputs need to be buffered (parallel to the circuit shown) and sent to diodes facing the opposite direction.
Then either two sepperate threshold pots could be used, or just one, setting the splitpoint.
With Audio it makes no difference anyhow, min and max sound quite the same. For cv of course this is a cool function.
I´m just thinking: Maybe the inputs should be buffered in any case. Otherwise a threshold voltage set to high (in case of the max module) could creep back the cable and affect what´s before the diode.
Say, in a case like: LFO mods filter, the max module is used so that in it´s upper swing it mods something else as well.


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zipzap



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And here is the deluxe version. untested. opamps are cheap...
Inputs go to voltage dividers first. That´s a must for the minmax anyway.
Than they are buffered twice in parallel, once for the min, once for the max. I´ve made the threshold voltage controlled, have to check it out, maybe that´s cool. A switch could link the threshold of the two modules to make it superflexible.
And last, in the spirit of our discussion on flexible multitask multipurpose modules, the inputs are summed.
So this module will output the mix of 4 signals, their maximum, their minimum, and it can do vc clipping of the last two.
The clipping can also turn it into a kind of vca/crossfader when one signal is below audiorate, the others above. The slow signal will change volume( can turn it domn completly) and sound.
Still i wonder why with the max module i built the output stays nicely around 0v with threshold at min, since it´s then connected to -12v.


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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zipzap wrote:
WMaybe the inputs should be buffered in any case. Otherwise a threshold voltage set to high (in case of the max module) could creep back the cable and affect what´s before the diode.


Not really, the diodes will prevent that. There is some asymmetry though, the output that currently has th maximum value will send some current into the circuit, but when another one goes higher that one will supply the current, so the first one will see less load and the voltage might raise a bit. In you circuit the load will never be worse than 10 k (the resistor ggoing to the treshold pot), so it will not be a big problem.

Why the output would stay around zero volts with the treshold being set to a negative value is beyond me - maybe you have something connected to an input that has its output around zero (and is dc coupled as well) ?

Anyway, you were right to leave the 5th diode out, and and I like your cicuit better than the original.

The link posted by 211 is a much more "perfect" circuit of course. having no diode drops and no real asymetry in load and no asymetry in the speed with which it fiollows the input signals either - but it costs of course.

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
The link posted by 211 is a much more "perfect" circuit of course. having no diode drops and no real asymetry in load and no asymetry in the speed with which it fiollows the input signals either - but it costs of course.


Crazy! I overlooked that! When i loged in i read the last post, and didn´t notice what was above, instead went right to work!
Well, something to do for tomorrow!
Thanks 211!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Zip Zap,

I used a Peak/Trough function in the mixer I expounded on so much in the Heavy Metal With XORs thread:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-11070-25.html

I, too, ran into pitfalls between the concept and actual implementation of the circuit. I used Ken Stone's Analog Logic circuit as the basis for my implementation.

Like you, I too wanted the voltage dividers on the inputs - in fact, the Peak/Trough outputs were to be additional outputs of the mixer (which they turned out to be).

Problem with using voltage dividers I did not anticipate: With no input, your voltage divider will still put out a signal as far as a Peak/Trough circuit is concerned. That signal is 0V.

Haven't checked your schematic out thoroughly yet, but in my situation, when I first tried the circuit - worked fine. One bipolar signal input would send the signal through unaltered. Two bipolar signal inputs would return the min or the max. Great! I added the pots. Now, just one signal input would give only the top half of the signal (for peak) and the trough output was the bottom half the signal. Light bulb over head moment - ground is a higher potential than -V and a lower potential than +V. The voltage divider connection to ground was giving me that ground, whether I wanted it or not.

My solution probably will not work in your case if you're using banana jacks. I used stereo switched jacks. For the Peak connection, I had the jacks switch in -V on the input, so that any reasonable signal would always be above it. For the trough, I switched in +V, again, higher than any expected input. Plugging in the jacks grounded the + and -V input with the stereo ring coming in contact with the ground plane of the mono plug and allowed the circuit to use the input signal, for each input. Works like a charm. I just have to be sure not to use stereo plugs Very Happy

Cheerio,
Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh yes, the mixer means trouble, it connects all unused inputs to virtual ground. In that light ... the buffering input opamps might not be such a good idea either - they will float wherever their input wants to float.

Simple things can be quite tricky sometimes ...

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´ll have to do some experiments i guess. Can´t follow right now...
I´d like to see Ken Stone´s analogic. Whenever i visit his site the shematics won´t load. Someone experianced the same?
His collection looks so promising!

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