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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
? digital modulation Sources for the System / especially G2
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:32 am    Post subject:  ? digital modulation Sources for the System / especially G2
Subject description: edit: changed a little: also G2 as audioFX or VCA for the System
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Out of the Modular Pictures thread:

davep wrote:
Here's a recent picture of my modular. It's about 80% Dotcom, the rest is MOTM and an Encore Frequency Shifter and a pair of Encore Universal Event generators. I'm controlling it with the Nord G2 via an Encore Expressionist, which is an eight channel midi-CV converter. It's working out very well! Lots of cool sequency stuff and complex control signals coming from the G2 to the modular, plus some FX processing by sending the modular through the G2, and/or sending the G2 through the modular. Latest addition to the rig is a custom patch panel below the Expressionist which brings all of the Expressionists CV and gate jacks and all of the G2's audio in & out jacks out to the front for easy patching (not shown in this photo). Oh yeah, and the cool red lights on top. Oooooh.


@Dave

hi,
i'm interested to see your patches you need to control your Modularsystem.
I just have the engine at the moment and no big Midi interface so i could not make any trys with my engine.

I don't like anymore to work with computers, but to contrlol and automat the System with the digital possibilitys is definitly a need for me. ( Beatsync ).

____________________________________________________________________

Maybe we can also discuss in general a little about the pros and cons between digital and analog Modulationsources.
Especially also the wishes and visions about.


I think there is definitly a need for (big) digital modulation Modules that are delivering LFOs and envelops with Beatssync functionality.
to take the G2 is one posibility........................... ,

...........................................................................but just if you have one. Wink

______________________________________________________________________-

What is in my mind is a Rackmount module with 16 or better 32 encoders, and two 2x40 Displays.
A Module that delivers many LFOs and Envelops with Beatsync

..................................

I need this, and you ?
What exists allready ?

Last edited by Funky40 on Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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davep



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi funky40,

I am attaching one of the G2 patches that I have been using to control my analog modular. The idea is to use the G2 for modulation sources that are not easy (or not cheap) to create with the analog modular, and using the analog modular for what it does best - the analog audio chain.

It includes a sequencer and a quantized pattern generator (two left columns, light blue modules), with switches to select sequencer or pattern gen, and also to select between four different patterns from the pattern gen. Hardware sequencers are expensive, and complex pattern generators are rare.

Then it has several more control signal generators, and each is routed to a midi CC out module. These are set to cc23 - cc28:

cc23 (yellow modules) - Aftertouch routed through an envelope follower to give separate controls for rise and fall slew rates. This can make the aftertouch work much better with patches that have a long release, because the aftertouch can fall slowly after you release the note.

cc24 (purple modules) - An envelope generator that has several extra features that you don't often find in a hardware analog EG, like modulatable rate that is controlled by velocity and keyboard note, with switches to determine the polarity of these mod sources (you can have higher velocity values cause slower EG rates or faster EG rates).

cc25 (red modules) Complex LFO that can be synced to midi clock and includes shape modulation and phase offset control (useful when syncing to midi).

cc26 and cc27 (green modules) Two different random control signal generators. One is a standard G2 random module, the other is two different random LFOs through a swept crossfader. It's still random, but it has a different type of behavior.

cc28 (blue modules) a Track & Hold signal. Just because it's one more thing that I can't easily do with the analog modular.

All of the useful controls are assigned to the panel. In addition, the group of green mixer modules at the lower left are assigned to panel row E1. They don't do anything in the patch, the just provide nice labels in the displays to remind me which control signals are assigned to which midi cc#'s.

I need to do some more experimenting with sequencers. It works OK the way I am using it, but it glitches if I hold a key down too long when I select a new note while it's running. Not sure what I'm doing wrong...

Did you see the article here at EM by Per Wilstrom? He is doing some similar stuff with his Doepfer system. Article is here:
http://electro-music.com/article.php?t=9118
Maybe send him a PM and invite him to participate in this discussion?


DotcomSetup0.pch2
 Description:
specialty patch - used for controlling an analog modular synth via an eight channel midi-CV converter.

Download
 Filename:  DotcomSetup0.pch2
 Filesize:  4.61 KB
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

very nice, thanks a lot Dave.


Quote:
cc24 (purple modules) - An envelope generator that has several extra features that you don't often find in a hardware analog EG, like modulatable rate that is controlled by velocity and keyboard note, with switches to determine the polarity of these mod sources

(you can have higher velocity values cause slower EG rates or faster EG rates).

This is very important.
Do you get fast envelops this way ? I mean. is it as fast as you would steer only the G2 internal, or do you "feel" a delay ?
This supersnappy ones, do they work ?

Seems to be one of the most logic things to use the G2 also for the hardware-Modularsystem.



(I'll take now a look to the article. )
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Per



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:48 am    Post subject: G2 as Modular controller Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi folks. I am glad that this thread appeared. I am satisfied that I am not alone with this type of analogue/digital modular setup. Here are some of my experiences:

I have run my setup with G2 and a analogue modular for nearly two years now, and for me it works very good. It is intuitive and quick, and to me it picks the best parts of two worlds. I do most of the sequencing, random trigs and notes and all of that stuff in the G2, and process it through the note scaling module.
Then I use the analogue sequencers for filters or other applications where they do a good job.
Normally, I use a single G2 VCO just for monitoring the melody lines, then build the sound in the the modular, replacing the G2 VCO with a midi out module.

There are some sorts of audio that a modular is not so reliable, for example PM, where I still use the G2 VCOs.

With the 8 variations, available in G2, dramatic changes in the soundstructures can be made that are nearly impossible using only a analogue modular.

I use a Doepfer MCV24 interface, that offers transition of 12 midi channels into CV/gate. It has also internal LFO and envelopes, but I never use them, as it is too much menu programming for my taste. I have not experienced any delays or other problems of bad timing.
The CV outs of the interface can double as gate out, if the CV midi out modules of the G2 is biased down with a constant of -64. Then only one channel is needed for clock pulse and reset pulse.

As fundamental clock and reset generator, I use a Korg Electribe. Even if the setup does not include any drums, I think it is nice to have one central source of pulse.

Generally, i found that for the music I make, the natural limit in analogue modular voices is about 7, after that the sound picture get clogged. So I save some midi channels for digital hardware like the NM Classic, Roland XV and other sound sources.

From the beginning, it I thougt I would save money by putting all CV processing in the G2, and use only sound modules in the modular. But that was just a hope. CV processing with real cables is fun, and half of my present modular is CV sources or CV processing modules.

One drawback is that the internal signal level, 10 v peak to peak, is too heavy for the G2 audio inputs. So there has to be VCAs or mixers to attenuate the signal, if you want to use the G2 as sound processor.

I am about the end the modular build up now, at least I hope so. I am waiting for some extravagant modules from Cyndustries and Cwejman, than the plan is to mount all racks in a wooden case, and paint it red like the G2.

But if i knew from the start what i knew now, I had done things different. I should have bought a G2 engine, that could sit right in the modular. I would have bought fewer, but more verstatile and personal modules. That had meant half of the setup with cheap bread and butter doepfer modules, the rest from Blacet, Wiard, Metasonix and other firms.

If there are any interest in sound samples or G2 patches, I can post it.

Per Wikstrom
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, yes,
I'm very interested in sound samples and also in your patches.
and also thanks a lot for parcitipating Very Happy

Well, i remember now.
In springtime, when i was on the way to decide if i should get a Modularsystem or not, i read your article.
then it was one of my Plans or visions to use the G2engine as a Part of the System.
But i just thought about to use it for audiosignals................
Later this Year, after making first experiences with my System i came to the thinking that the digital steering is a need.................
.................combining the best of both worlds.


Maybe also one Reason why i opened this thread:
In the German Forum "i'm at Home", i read more than one statement that seemed to be a kind of Modularsystem Rassism ( have no better formulating).
In the direction that one never would mix up this two worlds.
So it's really good to have here statements from People that are mixing both worlds with success and fun.


@Per
Interesting that you would prefer now the Engine.
I have the engine and i think i would prefer now the G2
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Per



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And here is the last sample, and a G2 performance. The G2 noise VCOs has not any comparable friend in the analogue world, so I use them as audio sources.
I don´t know if theese music, or patches, has any meaning to you guys. But to me it has become a sort of system for making music, where it is as fast. or fun, to patch in virual world as it is in real analogue world.
I have made some music for swedish television, for exemple for a documentary on the German computer pioneer Konrad Zuse, who made the first computer out of metal sheets and steel rods in the 30ies. And for that music, this kind of analogue sounds was great to use.
It also gives some satisfaction to build a synth/audio network that ain´t a copy of Reason or ordinary dance/techno studios. Something unique. At least, that gives me satisfaction.
Now I´ll go and do my daughter homework...
Per
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Per



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Do not know what happend. I did send 3 G2 patches with Mp3s but it seems like most of it did not pass some digital fence. If you are really intrested, mail me on per.forenadeord@telia.com and I resend it.
Per
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
very nice, thanks a lot Dave.

This is very important.
Do you get fast envelops this way ? I mean. is it as fast as you would steer only the G2 internal, or do you "feel" a delay ?
This supersnappy ones, do they work ?

Seems to be one of the most logic things to use the G2 also for the hardware-Modularsystem.

(I'll take now a look to the article. )


Ah, good question. I have done some experiments and comparisons between control signals generated entirely with the analog modular and controls signals generated by the G2 and then converted via midi to CV, and the answer to your question is - it depends.

If you want an INSTANT attack, or any instant transition like a stepped S/H signal, the G2>midi>Encore>CV signal works fine (other midi>CV converters may behave differently, but the Encore is good).

And if you want a nice slow control signal, especially one that is complex or random or hard to do with the analog gear, the G2 setup again works very well.

BUT - there are some types of control signals that get screwed up when you send them over midi and convert them to analog CV. These tend to be signals that have very fast slides from one level to another, like an envelope with an instant attack and a fast 15msec decay. The attack will sound fine, but you may hear fast stairstep artifacts in the fast decay due to the midi data rate. You may also hear this effect in a very fast LFO, like 16Hz.

If your analog modular includes some slew modules (portamento) you can use these to smooth out the signal and get rid of teh stepped artifacts, but this won't work for signals that include both fast slides AND instant jumps (like the instant attack and fast decay EG) because it will also slew the instant attack.

Also, it depends on how you use the signal. For example if the control signal is modulating PWM the midi stepping artifacts may not be very noticeable, but if you are sweeping a filter over the entire range with the resonance at max or sweeping an osc's pitch over several octaves it will be much more noticeable.

So it seems Per and I have come to similar conclusions - it's probably not a good idea to try to use the G2 for ALL your control signals, but it works great for certain types. These include things like sequencers, stepped patterns and many slower CVs, especially those you can't easily do in the analog modular like midi sync'd LFOs and complex random sweeps.

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Per



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think you are right, David.
And i think the quality and resolution and speed of the DACs in the midi-CV converter is the central point. The Doepfer MCV24 contains for example (for midi to CV) 4 high resolution DACs and 8 low resolution DACs. If i remember right, the low level resolution is 12 steps/note. They are perfectly in tune, but gives clearly audible steps in for example pitchbending. The gear has an internal portamento to cover that shortcoming, but it does slow things down.
But one good thing is that many of the CV source and processing modules are lower priced than the VCOs and audio processors. It is possible to get a rather complex CV rack for a limited amount of money.

Per
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks David.
As long i don't have a good midi interface, i can not test it really.
but when, i will also look for a controller for my G2.
Sequenzing stuff is cool, and the Hardware Sequenzers are very expensive,
and when thinking that you need 3 Lines for Pitch, Gatelenght and Velocity it makes real mor sense to choose the digital ones.


@Per
very nice song. Thanks a lot.
Have to try by my own something like this. ( i'm mostly just experimenting with my Synths. there's no real output. )
I will send you a Mail
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can get CV signals out of the G2 directly by making a modification. I modified my G2X to get a CV for my moogerfooger low pass filter. If you have not already seen this topic, check it out:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-12266.html

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh hi,

Yes,i've read this topic with much interest and i've linked it to the www.synthesizerforum.de , because i'd not understood it all. (my english is not good)

the Plan then was to modify my old NM1 Rack first . Mainly to use it as a Gatesequenzer and ofcourse to get experience........

This Things take all much time because i'm new in electronics and DIY.
I think a good (big) Midi Interface will be first........
But the CV mod is also beside of the midinterface an very interesting thing.



I still do not understand if the modified Outputs of the G2 ( i have an engine ) are completly lost for normal use.
My Idea would be to double the Outputs first. Then having 4 normal Outputs in the engine is a must for me.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You cannot add more outputs. You can only modify the existing outputs so they pass DC control signals and other vey-very low frequency (non-audio) control signals. (the stock version of the synth has DC blocking capacitors to assure that whatever you do in your patch, you will end up with a signal that is more or less centered around the zero crossing line and isn't passing harmful DC signals to your speakers). The outputs should still work as regular audio outputs after removing the DC blocking caps, but you would now have to be more careful because they would now have the potential to pass harmful DC signals from these outputs which can damage your speakers.

Also, since there are only four total outputs, you have less available than you would have if you sent control signals via a multi-channel midi-to-CV converter. But as mentioned earlier, there are some shortcomings in the quality of some types of control signals transmitted via midi, so you could use a couple of modified G2 outputs for hi-resolution control signals and use a midi-to-CV converter for several more signals that don't need to be hi-res.

I wonder - how feasable would it be to add a multipole switch to the panel to allow you to switch the DC blocking caps in & out of the circuit, so you could switch a pair of outputs between standard audio (caps in circuit to block DC) and optimized for control signals (DC blocking caps bypassed)?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
I still do not understand if the modified Outputs of the G2 ( i have an engine ) are completly lost for normal use.
My Idea would be to double the Outputs first. Then having 4 normal Outputs in the engine is a must for me.


If you need all four G2 outputs for normal audio at the same time, then you could not use this modification to get any CV signal outputs at the same time.

I decided to get only one CV signal from the G2X on Output 4. I did not remove/bypass the DC blocking capacitor, so the normal Output 4 jack still functions as usual if I make a G2 patch with the audio output as it would normally be patched. I just added another cable output connected before the DC blocking capacitor for Output 4 which will allow a DC CV signal that I make in a G2 patch to be connected to the moogerfooger filter cutoff CV input. I can have a normal audio output on Output 4 *or* a dedicated CV signal output - but not both at the same time.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,
I came now to the Point that i use the G2engine as a VCA/Envelope for my Modularsystem .
I came to no Results to have good control with Velocity over the Amp VCA within the system itself.
( i have tryed several ways. the Problem seeems to be my midiinterface and its Velocity behaviour)



With the engine it works very fine.

Now my question:
i like to do this duophonic.
Within the engine the several voices are stacked unvisible.
But now with Signals coming from outside thru the inputs i have to do the polyphony physically.
1. )Is there a Way to do this ?
2.) How ?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Polyphonic suggestion Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don´t know if it is what yoy are looking for, but two patches in two slots with split keyboard should do the job. They can be nearly identical, only differ in audío in and send midi note channel.
You have to adept the playing style to that setup, but I guess it will work.
Per
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i have thought about some mor. No Idea......

@Per
your Idea would be the workaround when sequenzing.
for jammin on the Keys it's not so practicable.
thanks Per.

shit, i wish to have a 4Input module , but a polyphonic one wich hase just one physical out.
I don't think that this would be difficult to programm..
Anyway, i wish also to have a polyphonic mode where each voice is on one slot, or sayed otherways:
that one could play different slots in a polyphonic mode, as a analogModular would be too.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:

Now my question:
i like to do this duophonic.
Within the engine the several voices are stacked unvisible.
But now with Signals coming from outside thru the inputs i have to do the polyphony physically.
1. )Is there a Way to do this ?
2.) How ?


You mean like the left input goes into voice one and the right input into voice 2 ?

If so this can be done by using a multiplexer controlled from a status module "voice no" output. Just take an 8 input multplexer and connect the left signal to input 1 and the right to input 2. This can be expnanded to four inputs for a four voice patch.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
You mean like the left input goes into voice one and the right input into voice 2 ?

Yes, thats what im looking for


Blue Hell wrote:
If so this can be done by using a multiplexer controlled from a status module "voice no" output. Just take an 8 input multplexer and connect the left signal to input 1 and the right to input 2. This can be expnanded to four inputs for a four voice patch.

OH Shocked Cool Very Happy

I'll have a look, but don't think that i'll get it.
Have never patched with this modules.
I'll see......

thanks Jan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:

I'll have a look, but don't think that i'll get it.
Have never patched with this modules.
I'll see......


Please do so but when you can't get it to work I'll later (I'm supposed to be working now) post a patch here with some explanation. The patch is not too difficult but it requires a little mind bending to see the splitting of things over voices, once that's clear it's easy.

The key is that the status module's voice number output will have a different output value for each voice requested from the patch.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok, how the statusmodul is controlin the Multiplexer i see.
Just patched the Input-, the Status-, and the Mulziplexer-modul togehter.
Nothing with audio tested yet.

to go further i copy this, and put it on a second slot.
in the first just the first input patched to the multiplexer.
On the second slot just the second input patched to the multiplexer.
and then both slots set to the same midi channel.


the behave of the multiplexer leds is a bit strange.
sometimes it counts forward.
sometimes it counts to 4, jumps back to 3, and then begins at 1 again.
and once it was counting backward.
5 minutes later is was again forward.
funny Wink, but i think not a Problem


next is to see if i get the midiinterface running in duophonic mode.
When i have a patch i post it
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The leds behave funny indeed that's OK. I wonder though why you use two slots, from how I understood what you want to accomplish there is no need to do so.
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