electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Chaos
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 2 of 2 [35 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2
Author Message
peripatitis



Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Hague

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In a more philosophical mood it might be interesting to know that chaos in the bibliography is first introduced in Isiodos Theogonia , were instead of it's current 'definition' it was mentioned to describe the total void , the emptiness !
So in that sense it would be funny to confront this people claiming that they work creatively by imposing order to chaos with this definition Smile

There is a very interesting speech from castoriadis 'true and false chaos' :

http://costis.org/x/castoriadis/Castoriadis-Figures_of_the_Thinkable.pdf

in case people don't know him which is quite a big possibility due to the fact that a lot of his work was published under different names , he was the latest Greek philosopher (20th century) and a had a big part in the events of may '68.
The article can be quite difficult if one has no love for philosophy but i think it is quite interesting.

Now in a more practical discussion , one could say that there are two working methods the top-down approach and the bottom-up .
Oversimplifying it one could think of additive synthesis and substractive (ex filtering noise).
In both cases composers who work with these methods can predict the form of the outcome , thus using chaos does not presuppose an non formalistic approach to music.
Perhaps one can not be sure about the actual number in a certain instance for a random generator for example but the abstract form of this is quite predictable.

So i wouldn't say that one can find 'inspiration in chaos ' if he actually has devoted himself to work with these tools.
A lot of people that i met that are for example using fractals or non-linear equations always look for areas of predictability or repeating patterns
and these are the results they use most of the time as control structures.
And this is quite logical since total randomness if possible is quite boring to the ear.

One other issue that i think is somehow related to this discussion is the relation between the complexity of a control structure, derived perhaps from a chaotic equation and a sound event.

A lot of people using chaotic elements in their composition seem to prefer synthesis methods like granular synthesis or additive to impose these control structures on , perhaps this is important in order to communicate , make apparent their form since using the same control on a sample for example might not wield 'perceivable' results.

This limits a lot the sonic result , at least in terms of sonic originality ,but of course this has to do with how ones perceives electronic music.

I am not saying that having an underlying structure is not important , but it does not 'justify' in my view the outcome, which can only be judged
by the listener and hopefully without getting the load of information before hand as it is usual in a lot of electroacoustic gigs.

In the end an intelligent idea is not a work of art, is a work of intellect.
An intelligent musical idea is a different thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
chuck



Joined: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 58
Location: cincinnati, oh

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think I saw this on Wendy Carlos' website, but it may be from some other source. "Anything that is unpredicable is boring, anything that is predictable is boring... art is inbetween".

Anyone who has been brought up on commerical music expects patterns and repetitions. The first time ones hears most classical or art music the lack of obvious patterns is apparent. In other words the first hearing of Brahms or Stravinsky can seem 'chaotic', as it did many years ago.

So, in a lot of ways, chaos is in the ear of the beholder.

One of the beautiful things about the human mind is its need to find some level of structure. There is much research on this in terms of the mind 'filling in blanks' and playing all kinds of tricks on us just to try to derive some kind of meaning from the data we receive. The intellectual energy of our minds trying to find order in chaos is very stimulating to some.... and irratating to others. As one poster has noted, chaos may have a future as long as something else is going on. (try watching a sporting event on TV with the sound off and Mahler or Stockhausen on... interesting to note what 'connections' the mind comes up with).

What is curious to me is how many compositions one will hear at a electronic music concert where chaos is the only feature of the composition. It seems to me that using chaos as one element of a musical presentation would be far more useful. Something like the tape experiments that the Beatles did with "Sgt. Pepper's".

_________________
Never confuse beauty with the things that put your mind at ease.

Charles E. Ives
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17630
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 125
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been fascinated by chaos and randomness for many years. Artistically, they are quite different. Randomness has a certain apparent sameness to it, ironically. Chaos is much more interesting.

There are many kinds of chaotic systems. To me, the ones that are most interesting are those that at times sound like repeating patterns and at times break up into what sounds more like randomness, only to return to another repeating pattern. Sometimes these repeating patterns are fascinating because the chaotic system will change them very slightly as they evolve.

These processes are very interesting to me, often more than some composed music. As I get older, these chaotic systems are becoming more interesting than most composed music.

The Lorenz attractor exhibits this to some degree:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

At times the path will be like an oscillator looping around and around and then it will apparently suddenly jump to the other side, maybe jumping back and forth or staying there for a while. Anyhow, our minds can absorb the basic character of such a system and appreciate it. It's like looking at a waterfall, or clouds, or flowers - every rose is different, but a rose nonetheless.

Another chaotic system is the orbits for the sun's satellites, most obviously this chaotic nature is observed in the asteroids. For the short term, one can figure out the orbit of an asteroid, but since it moves through a complex field of other asteroids that can deflect it slightly, one can not predict the position of an asteroid very far in the future. This is like predicting the weather. It's like predicting anything in life for that matter, because life itself is so complex - life is certainly a chaotic system.

So, to me using chaotic systems to create music seems very natural and satisfying, and more interesting than say, the blues or other popular musical forms. (Still, there is a bit of that I do ike, and I have played in blues and rock bands. I enjoy playing boogie woogie on the piano.)

To me, composting with chaotic systems is not just finding an interesting one and letting it play forever, but finding it and presenting it to the listener for as long as it sounds interesting (by my own personal standards), then transitioning to something else. A composition can be realized by presenting several of these arranged to play different on instruments that sound good together. Thus, composing with chaotic systems doesn't have to be much different than the process used by Bach, Mozart or Stravinski.

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
dewdrop_world



Joined: Aug 28, 2006
Posts: 858
Location: Guangzhou, China
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can play with a Lorenz attractor here:

http://www.magneticmotorworks.com/chaos/make.html

hjh

_________________
ddw online: http://www.dewdrop-world.net
sc3 online: http://supercollider.sourceforge.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17630
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 125
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And speaking of Mandelbrot, check out these G2 patches that implement some of the equations. http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-13235.html

You don't need a G2 to play these, the G2 demo should work quite well: http://www.clavia.se/products/nordmodular/demo.htm

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Antimon



Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 3744
Location: Sweden
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 97

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For me, there is sometimes a difference between what I like to play and what I like to listen to. It feels nice to practise fast moves on a guitar or keyboard - and listening to yourself while you do it - but it's not always fun to listen to someone else doing the same thing.

When you use random elements you distance yourself a bit from the music generator, and get a bit closer to the audience. You can enjoy the music more like a casual listener sometimes, even though you set the wheels in motion, maybe a bit like a DJ. DJing the cosmos

/Stefan

_________________
Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
brams



Joined: Jan 30, 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
For me, there is sometimes a difference between what I like to play and what I like to listen to.


Yes, for me too. I really enjoy playing improvisations, in fact it's the only thing i do, but then there is always some lack of clear structure, which makes it harder to listen to than when it would all be composed and very well thought of. My dilemma.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
franzrosati



Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 21
Location: roma

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

since now, i've used a lot of mathematical distributions and attractors to generate parameters (fractals like pink or brownian motion, ikeda attractor or lorenz too).
Now i'm looking for models of population distribution like ants, viruses, insects etc... to apply to my sounds and maybe some visuals Smile

_________________
www.franzrosati.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
nic777



Joined: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 5
Location: johannesburg. SA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent thread this.
Ive also been using the "random-chaotic-no-rules" composition idea... but it does lack structure.. a track loses it's 'purpose'. But playing in this area of thinking I think will allow us to redefine what the structure of a track is. pull us out of the verse chorus verse bulid up mentality... perhaps a return to the creativity of composition of the classical composers... just with MUCH cooler tools.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tony



Joined: Oct 07, 2006
Posts: 21
Location: indonesia
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: everything is change
Subject description: this destructive energy for support contruction energi.2 side create universal
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I take story from puppet shadow from java this a tradisional theather
core of story is universal create buy chaos and absolute ,
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 2 of 2 [35 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use