electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
go to the radio page Live at electro-music.com radio 1 Please visit the chat
poster
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
how do i build polyphonic sequencers?
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 2 [27 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
Stanley Pain



Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Reading, UK
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 35

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:26 am    Post subject: how do i build polyphonic sequencers?
Subject description: ArGH!
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

am i being a total idiot? yes.

can anyone post an example/link to an example of a polyphonic sequencer for the G2?

i can't figure out how to build a sequencer that can trigger 2 or more notes from a single oscillator. and it's twisting my melon!!!!!

i'm sick of:
a) monophonic lines being my only option
b) having to use more oscillators than necessary

obviously the problem goes away if i use an external sequencer...

_________________
there's no I in TEAM, so let's all act as individuals instead
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Axiom



Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Italy
Audio files: 4
G2 patch files: 28

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

did you already tried with midi send/receive modules?

Luca

_________________
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stanley Pain



Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Reading, UK
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 35

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i don't see how that would work... let's say i want to send an A minor triad, 3 notes simultaneously... do i have to use 3 sequencers...? 3 midi send?
_________________
there's no I in TEAM, so let's all act as individuals instead
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The sequencers are monophonic in nature, they can't have different settings for each voice.

You'll probably need multiple sequencers. Either straight away which means a sequencer for each note of the chord. Or more complicated like one sequencer for the base note and another to select from a set of chords.

I said probably in the above as there is a way to know the voice number in a patch and with some more trickery that could probably be used to select from a set of notes, but more complicated stilland not very intuitive I'd guess.

There is a need for MIDI note send modules only when the sequencer gets too complicated to fit into the patch together with the sound generating stuff. You'd need one MIDI note send per note of the chord I'd think, not really sure though, maybe a bit of trickery would work here, but I guess there would be premature note-offs then. I don't use note sends often enough.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stanley Pain



Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Reading, UK
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 35

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'll figure it out manyana manyana
_________________
there's no I in TEAM, so let's all act as individuals instead
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The only way that I could work out envolved using multiple sets of not just sequencers, but oscillators too! I think Jan was right about the Note Send modules being mono too. Alternatively, you can get chords using RandTrig modules with NoteQuant modules, although they'll be... random!

Good luck! Very Happy

I've just thought... you could connect the Voice No. output of the Status module to the Ctr input of the SeqCtrl module and run the control output of your NoteSeq through the control ports of the SeqCtr... you could then form your chord using the faders on the SeqCtr, although that would be the same for every note... unless you control them with another sequencer for each note using morph controls... but... what a pain!

_________________
transformer Sheridan

Hear music and Nord Modular G2 patches and find out music production tips at
http://www.nitetimeproductions.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Stanley Pain



Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Reading, UK
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 35

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
The only way that I could work out envolved using multiple sets of not just sequencers, but oscillators too! I think Jan was right about the Note Send modules being mono too. Alternatively, you can get chords using RandTrig modules with NoteQuant modules, although they'll be... random!

Good luck! Very Happy

I've just thought... you could connect the Voice No. output of the Status module to the Ctr input of the SeqCtrl module and run the control output of your NoteSeq through the control ports of the SeqCtr... you could then form your chord using the faders on the SeqCtr, although that would be the same for every note... unless you control them with another sequencer for each note using morph controls... but... what a pain!


thanks for the post! there's a lot of food for thought here i'm going to mess with. i quite like the idea of the RandTrig to get random triads...

it's frustrating, because i know it must be possible to have 3 notes triggered simultaneously, if only because you are able to do it via the keyboard. but you can't send 3 different pitches as triggers to the oscillator module... or at least i can't figure out how.



question is having more than one oscillator more economical than having 2 note polyphony...?

then, you'd have to have independent amp envelopes, triggered one after the other, a bit like you'd have when you stacked Novation Bass stations together to create a polyphonic synth...

Rob? Rob? where are you?

_________________
there's no I in TEAM, so let's all act as individuals instead
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dasz



Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

it's frustrating, because i know it must be possible to have 3 notes triggered simultaneously, if only because you are able to do it via the keyboard. but you can't send 3 different pitches as triggers to the oscillator module... or at least i can't figure out how.

question is having more than one oscillator more economical than having 2 note polyphony...?


Of course it is better, Once you up the poly to 2 voices, you are committing on some more DSP as well. If your mono patch with 1 osci eats up 54%, then you if you have 2 voices, this eats up an extra DSP Chip for some other osc patch. Imagine now you have your 2 oscs in one patch (the 2nd one eats up 20%) which you copy you add another and you have 3 osc patch (with 3 different midi note rec modules for independant triggering of oscs) at 94% which eats one DSP, vs adding voices (which would eat up 2 DSPs).

But more of a preference, I like to use the latter approach, as each voice can be a completely different instrument, thus creating amazing layering possibilities.

In fact, I just finished such a patch, it is called SectorE_DZ.
/Dasz


p.asp.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  21.18 KB
 Viewed:  48710 Time(s)

p.asp.jpg



Last edited by dasz on Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kkissinger



Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 1353
Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
Audio files: 41

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a great topic. I enjoy little "mind bending" problems.

My analog synth work is hardware-based. If I wanted to do a polyphonic sequence on my Aries modular there are a couple of methods:

Since the sequencer is an 8x2 sequencer, I could do up to eight steps, each step containing two independently settable voltages -- each voltage could be sent to a separate VCO for two-note polyphony.

In addition, my sequencer (and most sequencers) have gate outputs at every step. Say I have three oscillators tracking from the sequencer tuned to form a minor triad. The gate signal could be attenuated to produce a half-step offset (1/12 volt) and applied to the "middle" note. Thus, the chord would change to a major triad on any step where the gate is added.

For that matter -- each gate signal could be split to multiple attenuators and you could get a plethora of discreet voltages for every sequencer step.

In order to get "controlled randomness" you could trigger a sample/hold from the sequencer's clock source. For the sample/hold's input, use an LFO square wave -- use random slow noise (for example) to vary the frequency of the LFO. This way, you would get one of two selected pitches that would vary at random with each clock pulse.

Anyway, this may be off-topic and little help for a G2 user -- perhaps these ideas can be modified and implemented in your G2 patch.

(as I am typing this, it occurs to me that I can set discreet pitches into my sequencer, vary the clock speed at random, and sample/hold the sequencer output.... thus, getting random pitches that are confined to the pitches that I set on the sequencer... can't wait to go home and try it!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dasz



Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, this is a totally valid way to expand on it.

And here for your listening pleasure is the mp3 of SectorE_DZ.pch

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-90424.html#90424

Your feedback is always welcome.
/Dasz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kkissinger



Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 1353
Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
Audio files: 41

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is a neat patch. Looks like you have Delay in the signal path -- is that enabling you to sound multiple notes simultaneously?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
X-Electric



Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Audio files: 7

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's my straightforward approach to arpeggiators. The patch itself is a simple rendition of cheap plastic keyboards, although I managed to get a harmonic arpeggio line, bass line, drum rhythm and a lead voice still with 3 voices poly on Micro Wink

First 12 notes on a keyboard are meant to choose the base note, and Mod. wheel changes chords from Minor (down) to Major (up). It's pretty easy to use and play. I'm attaching a screenshot and an audio file for those without first generation of Nord Modulars. (Don't mention my crappy play abilities - audio file was made in one shot in a hurry)


XL_Keyboard.jpg
 Description:
Screenshot of the patch.
 Filesize:  278.26 KB
 Viewed:  996 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

XL_Keyboard.jpg



XL_Keyboard.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  XL_Keyboard.mp3
 Filesize:  813.88 KB
 Downloaded:  1365 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dasz



Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
That is a neat patch. Looks like you have Delay in the signal path -- is that enabling you to sound multiple notes simultaneously?


The delay is for even more layering. I have 2 sound sources, some of them iteracting with each other, based on 3 tone generators.

Perhaps this mp3 is not a good example. It does provide another reason why it is good to put more osc's into one voice vs use 2 voices. For diveristy. I can change the source of each voice (ie interchange the architecture on the fly).

/Dasz

Last edited by dasz on Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A quicxk sketch for a multi sequencer.


multi-seq.pch2
 Description:
Setup for multi sequencing

Download
 Filename:  multi-seq.pch2
 Filesize:  2.39 KB
 Downloaded:  2428 Time(s)


_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2669
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 626

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is also the music box or piano roll technique. I like it because it gives gate time control at the same time.


musicBox.pch2
 Description:
polyphonic seq piano roll style

Download
 Filename:  musicBox.pch2
 Filesize:  4.91 KB
 Downloaded:  1837 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dasz



Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A Chord selector (which selects the chords stored in 3 voltage seqs)
/Dasz


ChordPad_DZ.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  ChordPad_DZ.pch2
 Filesize:  4.88 KB
 Downloaded:  1691 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

recordable and storeable polyphonic sequencing.

with the pitch stick you write into the storeable sequencers on the mono area..the poly area uses Palles samplke delay technique..as i ve herad in the bug forum it might be necessary to add an HPF in the delay loops to avoid hangs ...


PolyQuenzer A1.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  PolyQuenzer A1.pch2
 Filesize:  11.38 KB
 Downloaded:  1707 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rob



Joined: Mar 29, 2004
Posts: 580
Location: The Hague/Netherlands/EC
G2 patch files: 109

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Stanley Pain wrote:
Rob? Rob? where are you?


At home Very Happy

Triggering multiple notes at once from the FX area to a polyphonic patch by using MIDI modules is straightforward. What needs attention is how you can define chords in a straightforward way, e.g. program each chord separately by using several parallel sequencers, or by defining a system of major/minor/etc separately and then define the key the chord is in by transposing the chord to the wanted key.

Here is some examples where one can trigger several MIDI Out modules from a limited set of notes that can be transposed to a certain key. E.g. in example 2 there are six notes chosen on the MIDI OUT modules. In the intervals of these six notes are both major and minor chords, depending on which of the six notes you trigger. I like this method as it is easy to set up possible chords and then just transpose them to the right key one way or another.

In the patches I use a FlipFlop module where the Q output resets itself. This produces a Gate signal on the Q-bar output that is as long as the time interval between two triggers and goes off for only 1/24000th of a second at the start of a note. I found this a good way to expand the Gate time to layer notes to chords, without destroying the swing as set on the ClkGen module.

Basically programming chords seems all a matter of reducing redundancy. What I often do myself is to see if I can see some system in the chords in a song and then try to minimize redundancy.

I guess there are enough examples in this thread now and in other threads to show that there are several ways to go about and it is just a matter of what sort of approach fits your application best.

/Rob


Chords4Stanley1.pch2
 Description:
Sequencing chords

Download
 Filename:  Chords4Stanley1.pch2
 Filesize:  3.3 KB
 Downloaded:  1815 Time(s)


Chords4Stanley2.pch2
 Description:
Sequencing chords

Download
 Filename:  Chords4Stanley2.pch2
 Filesize:  3.73 KB
 Downloaded:  1844 Time(s)


Chords4Stanley3.pch2
 Description:
Sequencing chords

Download
 Filename:  Chords4Stanley3.pch2
 Filesize:  4.63 KB
 Downloaded:  1776 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Stanley Pain



Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Reading, UK
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 35

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks to everyone for answering this question. there are so many neat [sic] ideas here that i'm looking forward to trying out.
_________________
there's no I in TEAM, so let's all act as individuals instead
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cappy2112



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 2465
Location: San Jose, California
Audio files: 2
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
A quicxk sketch for a multi sequencer.


I"m curious- why did you use the 8-input Mux over an 8 input Mixer?

I've connected both, using a switch to toggle between the tow, and there is a noticeable difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cappy2112 wrote:
I"m curious- why did you use the 8-input Mux over an 8 input Mixer?


Because the mux selects and the mixer mixes. The idea is to select a different sequencer for each voice. So in voice 1 the topmost sequencer is active, in voice 2 the 2nd, etc. A mixer just mixes the sequences for all voices the same, and so it just won't work for the purpose.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
exeterdown



Joined: Oct 13, 2013
Posts: 49
Location: Melbourne, Australia
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject:  Polyphonic Sequencing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've had a hunt around and cant find the answer to this problem.

I've seen examples like using the Status module to achieve individual detuned voices and I know you can get polyphony from the G2.

The problem is when using say the Note Sequencer each new pitch cuts the last one off and each new trigger restarts the Envelope.

To stop each successive note in the sequencer knocking the pitch of the oscillator around after the envelope had been triggered I used a Sample and Hold. But what I'm looking to do is have one sequencer where each new voice is triggered, allowing notes to overlap.

I swear one night while working on this for a while I figured it out and was ecstatic but now can't remember how I did it.

I find using the attached patch if I increase the polyphony all I get is a kind of unison OSC sound with all the voices stacked monophonically.

This feels so obvious but I just cant grok it.

Edit: just saw this:
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-391762.html#391762


Poly-attempt.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Poly-attempt.pch2
 Filesize:  1.43 KB
 Downloaded:  4031 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here is a simple example, the idea is that you have the sequencer in the FX area and the sound generation in the voice area - then send the notes from FX to VA, with an internal MIDI link, dial up the voice count, and presto ...

This example assumes the patch to be loaded into slot D.


exeter_pply_01.pch2
 Description:
example for sequencing with overlapping notes - load patch into slot D please.

Download
 Filename:  exeter_pply_01.pch2
 Filesize:  1.47 KB
 Downloaded:  4749 Time(s)


_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
exeterdown



Joined: Oct 13, 2013
Posts: 49
Location: Melbourne, Australia
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is really cool.
I'd still love to hear some other takes on the same problem.

I've not really got into the bus systems of the G2 yet though I know that's where it really sets itself apart.

I'm wondering what kind of issues I might come up against using this method and other sequencers in the same patch. Like ones in the FX vs VA areas.
I'll have to do some playing around.

Cheers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
t4k4sh1



Joined: Feb 08, 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Tokyo
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Sequencing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

exeterdown wrote:
I've had a hunt around and cant find the answer to this problem.

I've seen examples like using the Status module to achieve individual detuned voices and I know you can get polyphony from the G2.

The problem is when using say the Note Sequencer each new pitch cuts the last one off and each new trigger restarts the Envelope.

To stop each successive note in the sequencer knocking the pitch of the oscillator around after the envelope had been triggered I used a Sample and Hold. But what I'm looking to do is have one sequencer where each new voice is triggered, allowing notes to overlap.

I swear one night while working on this for a while I figured it out and was ecstatic but now can't remember how I did it.

I find using the attached patch if I increase the polyphony all I get is a kind of unison OSC sound with all the voices stacked monophonically.

This feels so obvious but I just cant grok it.

Edit: just saw this:
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-391762.html#391762


Use Status and 8Mux like on 3phase's patch above. Basically status module outputs which polyphony it is playing and you can use 8mux to select which sequencer module the polyphony uses. You will need 1 sequencer per polyphony of course, otherwise the notes will be unison.
The patch surface you see will be layered as you rise the polyphony, Status module can tell you which 'layer' it is working.
So if you have a random module based on the poly number, each 'layer' will generate different random value.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 2 [27 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use