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paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey noiseusse i think you might surprised how much we agree..especially if you heard my own music

but check this out...

just because some art can communicate to many people or everyone, does not mean that it is some kind of
'reinforcement of banlity' or some kind of 'escape or drug'

everyone likes mozart and he is not banal.. and john lennon communicated to the world messages of peace
thru music...and nusrat fateh ali khan also...to many many people,,and they are not banal etc, but rather quite profound...

i think this is the ideal goal of art..

unless of course 'lonliness' 'isolation' are somehow ideal states of mind , which i doubt


my main thing is that artists tend to scowl and rip on any other artist's attempt to appeal to a mass audience and assume there is some kind of selling out or Ultimate Compromise ...

and i just wanted to point out that this is a. not always true and b. perhaps it is very worthwhile to attempt to reach out to as many people as possible and perhaps the highest goal so to speak..and that music is a practical tool for human and social enlightenment

and i also wanted to point out that some artists, are too self-involved to reach out to people with their music and protect themselves with high ideals and complex over-blown philosophies about what is and is not art ..a kind of a self-appointed 'philosopher king'


anyway....

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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've noticed that artists (A.) have a tendency to attack others (B.) who are pursuing means of reaching more people than artists A. "Selling out" has become a blanket term to describe the actions of anyone who is doing better or very likely to do better than you. Perhaps we should work to be a bit more circumspect when passing judgement on the endevors of others. After all, shouldn't it be we, the artists, who bear a greater degree of empathy than most people?

Cyx

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

syt wrote:
wohoo, I think this all started a long time ago like most things didn't just came to life through internet "NO" internet makes to process only quicker I find.

The artist in general wasn't in a much better position in the 70ies allready if I think of stories my dad use to tell me about managers and rec. comps... well I think Don is right but I think this article could have been written allready a long time ago when internet was still militarynet or freaknet. hrhr.


You are right .. and yes many have written similar articles years ago. One of the reasons this comesup now is that the internet allows sharing of ideas in a completely different way than old media even though the actual use of the internet these days is pretty much how we would use "old" media. And.. a lot of "new" issues have come up again and these have probably added to the burden. The major labels are handling the p2p thing as a means to reduce the artists rights and earnings... and this is a global problem. The major labels have also pretty much contributed to killing the way radio worked back in the old days, and their current way of marketing their products is pretty destructive to the very fabric of the business.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cyxeris wrote:
I've noticed that artists (A.) have a tendency to attack others (B.) who are pursuing means of reaching more people than artists A. "Selling out" has become a blanket term to describe the actions of anyone who is doing better or very likely to do better than you. Perhaps we should work to be a bit more circumspect when passing judgement on the endevors of others. After all, shouldn't it be we, the artists, who bear a greater degree of empathy than most people?

Cyx


Hmm.. true. I am a little amazed be the direction this thread has taken. Personally, I have never felt I had to "sell out" or adapt what I do musically in order to gain any sort of "bettered" state of communication with the audience. This might well because I am too stupid to try another and more sensible approach, or that my music is pretty dull anyway. On the other hand, I kind of grew up with a mix of classical music, avantgarde music and like Kurt Weill etc. so I suspect I do not see avantgarde ideas or whatever to be alienating at all. As compositional methods go, I feel that whatever mix of classical and new music/avantgarde theories that can deliver a cool piece of music will do just fine. This means that I have problems seeing weird music being challenging music these days, it is all just music.
When it comes to compromise, I can see how this can work just fine. Like you write some piece of music and you want it to have like an late 70s industrial terrorpop flavour(.. then musically of course.. it would have to conform to certain conventions..) and at the same time mix in a serialist string quartet and some serious musique concrete. If this is going to work well for both the composer and the audience.. the composer will have to make some compromises in order to deliver the goods. There are many similar scenarios. Making music for TV and films is a bout the same. In this scenario the music must both work for the composer, the film, the director and the producer and hopefully also the audience.
And.. perhaps the composer will go for making pieces that just he himself is the target audience for. Any choice is valid, and there is of course no rule that private music will not work for an audience. Trivia: a lot of avantgarde music is about challenging concepts and educating the listener. This has in fact proved very fruitful and we have been left with a legacy of ideas and methods that are free to apply whenever we feel like it.
A field which does in fact show a lot of promise when it comes to compromise / innovation is actually modern strains of electronic rock/pop. There are some cool sounds coming from this field and some of it is very interesting from a music theory standpoint. I guess innovation can be a more fruitful term rather than compromise. Innovation is about stretching the limits and compromise does perhaps taste a bit of confinement. We are different, and such terms might contain emotional depthcharges which can confuse what we are talking about.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sudden wrote:

just because some art can communicate to many people or everyone, does not mean that it is some kind of
'reinforcement of banlity' or some kind of 'escape or drug'


I specifically said that there is nothing wrong with making music that appeals to a broad audience. It's the censoring of art in order to have a wider appeal that irks me.

Quote:

everyone likes mozart and he is not banal.. and john lennon communicated to the world messages of peace
thru music...and nusrat fateh ali khan also...to many many people,,and they are not banal etc, but rather quite profound...


Yes. However, Mozart wasn't trying to please people. He made the music he had to make. He also managed to break many conventions and there were a lot of people during his own time that just couldn't understand what he was doing. I kind of doubt he sat down with a quil and said "Now I'm going to make something that everyone can understand." It was probably more like "I have to get this out of my head and onto paper."

Quote:

i think this is the ideal goal of art..

unless of course 'lonliness' 'isolation' are somehow ideal states of mind , which i doubt


You're taking what i said out of context. Remember "The cry of the pariah becomes the voice of a community." Lonliness and isolation are not ideal states of mind but they are something that's just as universal as joy and music which expresses those feelings can cancel them out.

Quote:

my main thing is that artists tend to scowl and rip on any other artist's attempt to appeal to a mass audience and assume there is some kind of selling out or Ultimate Compromise ...


Usually, there is. Especially now. But just one more time: I have nothing against music which appeals to a broad audience. It's the censoring of art that bothers me.

Quote:

and i just wanted to point out that this is a. not always true and b. perhaps it is very worthwhile to attempt to reach out to as many people as possible and perhaps the highest goal so to speak..and that music is a practical tool for human and social enlightenment

and i also wanted to point out that some artists, are too self-involved to reach out to people with their music and protect themselves with high ideals and complex over-blown philosophies about what is and is not art ..a kind of a self-appointed 'philosopher king'


Gee, you're not talking about me are you? ::>. TO repeat even more of what I said in the last post: I just make music that is an expression of my experience of life. I don't intentionally try to alienate the listener. If that happens, I don't really care because it's an individuals choice to listen to it and there is no such thing as an objective interpretation of art. What one person hears and says "Yuck, turn it off.", another person wil say "This is amazing, why have I never heard this before."

And, because there's nothing like an internal contradiction to keep oneself humble, I really think everything is art. In my last post i mispoke by saying I have faith in humanity. That's not really true. I have faith in nature. If you look at humanity as being a part of nature rather than in opposition to it this incredible picture starts to appear. The dominating technologized culture has produced all this fodder which has and will continue to be exploited for artistic purposes and then that same paradigm of domination takes art and exploits it for economic gain and then those products are re-appropriated by the artist and the cycle continues. The more the opposing paradigms try to wipe out the other, the stronger they become.

I don't think there is such a thing as wrong art. I think it comes down to each individual because no one else can say if what you are making inspires you or whether you just want to make a buck or be famous. And making bucks and being famous isn't wrong but it's not the same as being devoted to art. The two are not mutually exclusive but once they are sharing the same head, it's difficult to determine one's motivations.
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Michael Chocholak



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I've noticed that artists (A.) have a tendency to attack others

Question Who got "attacked?" There are some fairly vital issues being tossed around here by people with extremely strong and grounded opinions on the far sides of the spectrum. Makes for interesting fireworks. I don't think anybody got attacked.

Kinda goes back to the communication issue though. If we can't do it here, I don't think we should take on the task of 2.5 billion people. Very Happy I'm not sure artists have any kind of corner on empathy either. They/we are just one bunch in the pipeline.

Quote:
"Selling out" has become a blanket term to describe the actions of anyone who is doing better or very likely to do better than you.


"Doing better?" So is the implication that you can only 'do better' if there is a financial aspect attached or only if others approve? Well, that doesn't work for me. If others like it, great. If I get money, great. That's not why I pursue art.

Now, if I contract with someone for a commercial, or a webpage, or a video or a theatre production or whatever, well, that's different. There can be moments of artistic inspiration in craft, but basically someone wants a specific result (I can't bring myself to say 'product') and I've agreed to deliver it. I use my tools, talents and experience and I write a piece that fits the occasion. In order for that transaction to really be successful people should like the finished piece and therefore I get paid. That's fine too.

Some people get to do art and get paid for it. If they get a good or trendy rep, they get to do this as long as they want. There is always pressure to do another like the last one, but they've got room to move. This happens all the time. It just happens to very few people.

There is also another category where I don't know if it's art or if it's craft, but it sure as hell is FUN. But I won't go into that.

Innovation may be a way around or through compromise - I kinda like that - but usually innovation takes you far a field from the mainstream which has to play catch-up and broaden its own base.

Everybody hated Rite of Spring. It caused a riot. The same is true for Picasso, Joyce, etc. Hell, everybody got pissed at Bob Dylan just because he picked up an electric guitar. If the people that we now look back on as having created great works of art had compromised in order to satisfy or 'reach' the masses, we probably wouldn't know who they are today and we sure wouldn't have all those fantastic creations. Great works that have impacted and influenced millions of artists and non-artists down through time. Those works reached people in such a powerful way because the artists were true to their artistic vision.

And some of the greatest arists were total assholes as human beings, for whatever that's worth.

So if you want to reach out to people with your work, FINE. Do it! More power to you. Why do I have to buy into that concept? (maybe I do, maybe I don't) If you want to consider your art a commodity and hope to make money off of it, great! Go for it! What's that got to do with me?

There are exceptions to all of this. And I think a lot of the problem here may be semantic and the extending of assumptions beyond one's own personal boundaries. Most importantly I think is the fact that regardless of whether it's spiritual faith, politics, love, art or whatever, there are probably as many paths as there are people.

Two final quotes;

"Art is a man's name" - Andy Warhol

"Make concessions? In music? That is something that has never happened to me." - Edgard Varese

Very Happy Smile Sad Surprised Shocked Confused Cool Laughing Mad Razz Embarassed Crying or Very sad Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Rolling Eyes Wink

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Michael Chocholak



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh yeah, and I'm not into the 'manifesto' thing. Better to spend your time writing music than talking about how you would write it if you weren't spending so much time talking about it. Very Happy

And one more quote;
"You can't sell out if you never buy in." - Louis Armstrong

Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice, mezmer.

This is one of my fav's:

"There is no difference between noise and music in my work. I have no idea what you term 'music' and 'noise', it's different depending on each person. If noise means uncomfortable sound, then pop music is noise to me."

- Masami Akita
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Michael Chocholak



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Merzbow!
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mezmer wrote:
So if you want to reach out to people with your work, FINE. Do it! More power to you. Why do I have to buy into that concept? (maybe I do, maybe I don't) If you want to consider your art a commodity and hope to make money off of it, great! Go for it! What's that got to do with me?


Nothing, other than that is exactly what I was saying. But, you know. Wink Tomato tomato.

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

interesting stuff i would say...great thread...lots to mull over for everyone

thanks, all

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow. I sure do rant sometimes, huh? Thanks everybody. I must say, when I first signed up for this forum I had kind of high expectations (don't ask me why) and they have been exceeded consistently. Everyone here fuckin' rules.

This thread got me thinkin':

On monday I'm getting a new host with tons of space and SSL for ordering and whatnot. I've been trying to figure out the most open format possible for a distributor/label and I've come up with something new, or at least something I haven't seen before. Its going to be a set-your-own-price store. No one will feel exploited (except the taiwanese building the motherboards).

Here's how I envision it:
All soft copies. That means mp3 downloads of full albums with all the art in pdf or mpg, or whatever format it happens to be.

If artists released through this outlet want to set a price for their work, so be it. That's how much people will have to pay to download it. However, if artists don't particularly care about money then the person d/l'ing it can set their own price; anywhere from $0 to unfathomable quantities.

No one will control what money is going where besides the artists and the listeners. I think this gives maximum respect to music creators and music appreciators. There really isn't any middle man. The profits from the sale will go directly to the artist. No % for the label. If people want to donate to the label then that money will go to paying for the server space.

The 'label' part of this label/distributor thingy is that only music passed by the noiseusseuers will be distributed. Noiseusseuers will be (and have been) defined by the fact that they participate in decision-making. As in: any feedback they give matters, no matter how infrequent.

If you're interested in releasing something in this format, hit me up (play@noiseusse.org).

Feedback on this concept is greatly appreciated.
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the idea does raise some interesting possibilities, if architected properly, and remains niche (as you said, software only). I suppose paypal could be a great bennifit here. Basicly you give the artist a storefront, and you provide the shell.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse wrote:
Feedback on this concept is greatly appreciated.


What's the diff between your idea and this site? I'm working on downloads from the store now. People who sell CDs here set their own prices already. It would be the same for downloads. If you wanted to have the customer set the prices, that could be done, but there probably needs to be some minimum price.

There are lots of logistical issues. For example, if someone wanted to pay 25 cents for a download, PayPal would get a huge percentage of that. I don't know what it would be, but I can figure it out.

As for donations, several of you have written me off-line and suggested I put up a donations feature. I could, but this site is my contribution to support the music and the artists. I can afford to do this without asking for donations. Fortunately, no one has been abusing the attachment uploads. One great person, who wants to be anonymous, is providing server space and bandwidth. I greatly apprecate this.

Also, I'll give any member here a forum of their own where they can upload their music.
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

..and there is a lot of momentum built in to electro-music . com... it takes huge amounts of energy and time to have a 'presence' on the web and from what i gather, this takes some time..years maybe...andelectro-music . com is charging ahead and looking great, growing all the time.... Exclamation

and will reach that critical mass or point in time whre it become self-sustaining then perhaps move on to..um, The Next Level..

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't get me wrong, this site is grand. I don't see why there shouldn't be more grand websites ::) I'm not trying to compete.

The main difference between this site and what I am envisioning is probably the music. I don't want to set up a distributor, I want to set up a label. Noiseusse has been on the web for about a year and there are 4 active members who participate in deciding what music is going up as well as general design considerations and direction. So it's not really a public forum, but decisions are made by consensus of those who participate.

Mosc has a good point about paypal. It could be set up so that if people want to pay then there is a minimum, a very low one. It's important to me to keep payment optional if it's not specified by the artist.
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse's post has sparked a torrent of ideas in my greymatter that are piecing together beautifully, and I am doing research into the logistics thereof. I'm drafting a logical framework as we speak and will issue a proposal when completed for comment.
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse wrote:
Mosc has a good point about paypal. It could be set up so that if people want to pay then there is a minimum, a very low one. It's important to me to keep payment optional if it's not specified by the artist.


That is the beauty of what could be implemented here. Method of payment could be purely artist-dictated, and on a per-artist basis. Minimize the centralization, and utilize centralized efforts in ways where economies of scale bennefit everyone. Centralized movement of money is a bad thing. Consolidation of technical resources is a good thing. This could be setup very easily and in a fashion that is a part of e-m.com (which I am all for), but not a drain on e-m.com and Mosc. More to follow...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse wrote:
Don't get me wrong, this site is grand. I don't see why there shouldn't be more grand websites :Smile I'm not trying to compete.

The main difference between this site and what I am envisioning is probably the music. I don't want to set up a distributor, I want to set up a label. Noiseusse has been on the web for about a year and there are 4 active members who participate in deciding what music is going up as well as general design considerations and direction. So it's not really a public forum, but decisions are made by consensus of those who participate.


Hey, no problem doing your own thing. I wish you all the best success.

My hope is that we could accomodate your interests here, as part of a larger community, and still allow your individual identity to develop and prosper. One option would be to have a dedicated noiseusse forum under "Artists" or "Associations, Organizations, Conferences and Communities". That way you support the larger community with your presense and at the same time maintain a dedicated individual focus. You'd both benefit from the larger traffic that comes to the site, and you'd bring traffic to the site.

Your idea about customers determining the price is a good one. I don't think it will be attractive to everyone. It's very akin to playing for tips in the street. I have great respect for street musicians. I almost always put something in the jar.

I also like the idea of linking music to a charitable cause. In fact this is the most powerful idea, it's very inspirational. Kruge posted "how to get inspriation?", http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-1158.html . What would happen if you knew your music would help support hungry children or stop a war?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

Hey, no problem doing your own thing. I wish you all the best success.


Thanks.

Quote:

My hope is that we could accomodate your interests here, as part of a larger community, and still allow your individual identity to develop and prosper. One option would be to have a dedicated noiseusse forum under "Artists" or "Associations, Organizations, Conferences and Communities". That way you support the larger community with your presense and at the same time maintain a dedicated individual focus. You'd both benefit from the larger traffic that comes to the site, and you'd bring traffic to the site.


That's a great idea. We can definitely work out some kind of trade of energy that supports both.

Quote:

Your idea about customers determining the price is a good one. I don't think it will be attractive to everyone. It's very akin to playing for tips in the street. I have great respect for street musicians. I almost always put something in the jar.


I used to make a living that way playing classical and flamenco guitar when I was younger. I made between $7-$10/hour from tips. That's approximately what I would have made working as a line cook or something similar.

Tommorrow is the big scary server switch. I'll be tinkering for a couple days before I have a version one of the new format. I'll keep everybody posted.

Thanks for the support.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i had a really good discussion with cyxeris that i think adds relevance to this post..

he pointed out that one of the 'goals' or responsibilties of art is to

'sensitize' others

i thought that comment was right on the money and very intersting indeed...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We do want people to see the world as we do. Not necessarily exclusively as we do, but to at least understand what we do, I think. Different than entertaining.
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paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
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Location: toronto, canada
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
understand what we do, I think. Different than entertaining


yes..but this can also be done in an entertaining manner...

especially with humour.

in my opinion

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Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The greatest of artists seem to be able to accomplish both without diminishing the merit of either.
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bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
... This means that the music industry is actually selling a "western mass market consumer product" using and communicating various extreme "western ideas" at the same time. Take a look at how a lot of rap music is sold all over the world. Sex, crime, drugs and whatnot is seen as tittilating aspects of the music product. So, is pop music communicating true "western" ideals? Probably not.. or.. hopefully not. To me this makes very little sense. ...


It makes perfect sense because it provides an easy profit. Personally I think the problem here is human nature. Sex without love and respect, crime glorified till self aggrandizement and self worship become the ultimate virtue, and drugs taken in the pursuit of the preceding or for existential oblivion all have a very strong appeal to a very large fraction of the population. Corporations have exploited that human failing because they are run by people who have at least one of those failings, which is to say, these corporations are run by social criminals.

Just my two cents.
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