electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
Another brilliant commentary by Keith Olbermann
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 1 [16 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17606
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 124
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:56 pm    Post subject: Another brilliant commentary by Keith Olbermann
Subject description: A textbook definition of cowardice
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Keith Olbermann must be a marked man. People don't survive very long in the United States speaking the truth about the Bush administration.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/?&&id=15004160

Some facts that need to be mentioned:

The WTC disaster happened on Bush's watch. It was a tremendous failure. The administration is incompetent. If it wasn't Bush's responsibility, then who's was it.

The wars in Afganistan and Iraq were entered without plans for victory. They have been tremendously mismanaged. More incompetence.

The intellegence for the WMDs in Iraq was entirely incorrect. The administration mismanaged that too. More incompetence.

The politicization of FEMA and the failure of the government in New Orleans was a national disgrace. More incompetence.

More Americans have been killed by the wars Bush has started than were killed by the Sept 11th attacks. We are not safer now than before. The US invasion of Iraq was Bin Laden's wet dream. 150,000 American troops bogged down in an unwinable war and easy targets for the terrorists.

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2574
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 608

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Another brilliant commentary by Keith Olbermann
Subject description: A textbook definition of cowardice
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Howard, good read.

mosc wrote:
The intellegence for the WMDs in Iraq was entirely incorrect. The administration mismanaged that too. More incompetence.


I see it more as dishonesty masquerading as incompetence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17606
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 124
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Another brilliant commentary by Keith Olbermann
Subject description: A textbook definition of cowardice
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
I see it more as dishonesty masquerading as incompetence.

I guess living in the USA we have been conditioned that if you say something like that you will be dismissed. It appears that it is inconceivable that even a liberal would publically doubt the honesty of the Bush administration. The republicans have been very good at identifying any critical expressions as treason. They have hijacked the political discourse.

A question is - are they dishonest or incompetent?

Unfortunately, I think the answer is both. If they were dishonest but successful, then we would be a lot better off than we are now. Many world leaders are dishonest - maybe it is the majority. Few are as incompetent as the W Bush.

My impression is that he is a fool WRT Bin Laden. Bin Laden reminds me of Brer Rabbit, smart folk character always outwitting his adversaries. He got Bush follow him into the briar patch (his home turf) and then got him to punch the tar baby. (Not exactly the Brer Rabbit story, sorry).

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20471
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Another brilliant commentary by Keith Olbermann
Subject description: A textbook definition of cowardice
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
My impression is that he is a fool WRT Bin Laden.


No, I think not, or maybe you are right and it's the people controlling him that are not.

Everything is going according to the plan it seems, the plan being that it is good to have fear in people's hearts and war on the planet. I don't know for what purpose exactly, but I suggest to just see where the money rolled, afterwards.

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Another brilliant commentary by Keith Olbermann
Subject description: A textbook definition of cowardice
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I guess living in the USA we have been conditioned that if you say something like that you will be dismissed. It appears that it is inconceivable that even a liberal would publically doubt the honesty of the Bush administration. The republicans have been very good at identifying any critical expressions as treason. They have hijacked the political discourse.


Yes and no. I think this "top down" view of the situation is only half of it.

Media and particularly the more commercial ones are democracy in action (or so I firmly believe). Very large companies have a big stake in counting all votes (meaning viewer ratings) as carefully as possible because viewer ratings are money in advertising.

Politicians have a stake in faking votes, companies have a stake in counting them carefully. I have no doubt at all that if half-possible companies would jump at the chance of knowing exactly what every one individual wanted to see and getting as close to offering this as possible.

If the media is one-sided then it doesn't just mean one fraction gets to controll it; it means most people want to listen to that fraction. Beware when the media start to disagree with the politicians (because that means they counted the votes differently or voters shifted).

You can say the average person living in the USA has been conditioned and it would be true but equally true is saying that they have asked (or perhaps elected) to be conditioned.

I don't normally watch TV but when I accidentally see it at somebody else's house I always watch it from a perspective of why people would report on something (regardless of wether I think it's true or not) and how and when public opinion seems to shift.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17606
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 124
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003187334

I guess I was right. Keith is not long for this world...

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17606
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 124
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Media are corporations that receive money from other corporations to project positive images. They have absolutely not self interest in presenting opinions that would harm the status quo.

As Cramer says, the US has a government "of, by and for the corporations". Things may be different in Euorpe. In this country, the vast majority of media are owned by a few very large corporations. They are not neutral - they contribute to political candidates and they use their outlets to influence public opinion.

A few years ago, it came out that the US governmenet paid certain media outlets in Iraq to run US friendly articles. Why should one think that doesn't happen to US media as well?

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
They have absolutely not self interest in presenting opinions that would harm the status quo.


Yeah, but *who* is the status quo?

The status quo is people too. If most people decide they want to wear purple hats and sing 13th century sailor's songs then the status quo will be singing sailor's songs and the media will be full of articles on where to get the best purple hats. Purple hat manifacturing companies will get very rich and influential. One of those people, no more, no less, is you.


Quote:
As Cramer says, the US has a government "of, by and for the corporations". Things may be different in Euorpe. In this country, the vast majority of media are owned by a few very large corporations. They are not neutral - they contribute to political candidates and they use their outlets to influence public opinion.


Things are the same here. I think over half of Italy's media is owned by their president (somebody Italian fill me in). Remember that Pim Fortuin situation in my own country? The bald gay guy that got shot? Well, a lot of his popularity was thanks to a close friend of his having his own TV show and featuring Pim all the time.

Anyway, those large corporations are exctly the ones that I mean. Those corporations make a lot of money, they get this money from their customers and they get it because their customers pay it to them. They want more money all the time and the only way to get it for them is for people like you and me to voluntarily give it to them.

Get this; the only reason Fox is such a large station is because people watch it. The only reason Nike shoes are so expensive is that people pay that money for them. They can only influence public opinion because people elect (voluntarily) to watch those shows and then choose to have their opinion based on it.

This is democracy, this is freedom and this is what people elect if given the chance. This is not some abstract external force, this is people doing what they want. Personal responcibility is getting a rather unfashionable concept but you get fat because you eat too much, you don't get fat because of McDonalds.

Quote:
A few years ago, it came out that the US governmenet paid certain media outlets in Iraq to run US friendly articles.


Of cource they did! I could have told you so before the war started. Then what happened? Iraquis en masse watch Al Jazeera. I don't think this plot worked all that well. Aparently people in Iraq deal with propaganda differently from people in the US.

It's much the same here, BTW, I lost count of how many people I had to tell the national news was in fact paid for by the national government. They then either look like this is some sort of new revelation or like they don't beleive it and the national news is instead something that materialises out of thin air and pure objective Truth. I tend to follow this by tell them who paid for their school and invariably this is the point where they try to politely hide thinking Kassen is stark raving mad.

Quote:
Why should one think that doesn't happen to US media as well?


Well, you shouldn't.
Of cource the US government sponsors pro-US government programing. Duh. You have some money so you get have http://mosc.com/ which promotes a pro-Mosc image, they have a lot of money so they get TV stations.

However, you have a US government that does stuff like that because many voted to have such a government and many didn't vote at all. Aparently many didn't object enough to be bothered to voice a objection.

This is democracy; you get what you vote for (which may not be what you thought you voted for) and you most definately get what you pay for (which probably wasn't what you personally wanted to buy).

The average person likes democracy because it makes him get his way, kinda like dictators like dictatorships and priests like theocracies. It's not like it's Good(tm) or anything. You don't like what you got, neither do I but we're neither dictators nor priests so here we are trying to get more people to think like we do.

There is no magic (sorry).
The good news is that it only matters if you care.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kkissinger



Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 1214
Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
Audio files: 29

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Another brilliant commentary by Keith Olbermann
Subject description: A textbook definition of cowardice
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Bin Laden reminds me of Brer Rabbit, smart folk character always outwitting his adversaries. He got Bush follow him into the briar patch (his home turf) and then got him to punch the tar baby. (Not exactly the Brer Rabbit story, sorry).


Brilliant insight. Well put.

Just happens that I own an old LP recording of Remus Harris (I believe Uncle Remus's grandson) reading those tales. And I can hear him saying: "Born and bred in the Briar Patch Brer Fox!" That album is priceless.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17606
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 124
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen, your posts are almost directly from the American conservative commentary. "With a free media the peoples' will is expressed." "Free markets are the best thing for the consumer."

Free media is an illusion to pacify the people. The media is no more free now than when William Randolph Hearst and the muckrakers controlled it.

You are right, the media is looking for what color hats people wear. They make money on things like this because the corporations love it when superficial style is the focus of society. Sports is a godsend to them. But they avoid covering things that treaten their power such as poor people in the country, bad medical care standards, lower standards of living, polution, desparation in old people, hoplessness in the youth, unjust wars, injustice, etc.

Fox News used to have a big portion of the day devoted to featuring people who died fighting terror. They had a big bulletin board with pics sent in from the families. It got to be too big and started showing that we were losing a lot more people that was good for the administration's policies. Now, it is very rare to see anything but a casual mention of the death count. Only PBS gives each death a few seconds at the end of the nightly news. The conservatives are very active to change out the editorial staff of PBS and NPR, BTW.

The war in Iraq was entered because of oil. First the claim of WMD was trumpeted by the administation and the media puppets. Unfortunately for them, they were too incompetent to even fake WMDs. Well, then things changed suddenly to Iraq is critical to stop terrorists. The media companies do their job and indoctinate the public.

The status quo is that the oil companies are the most powerful force in the US society. Enron was the biggest contributor the the Bush campaign in 2000. Whether there are republicans or democrats in power, it makes little difference to them because they and their other corporate counterparts control the finances of the system - the political process and the media.

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
kkissinger



Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 1214
Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
Audio files: 29

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What I find sad and frightening about the political climate is that the Bush administration has "sold" the idea that to disagree with them is to be for the terrorists and against our troops.

Fair-mindedness seems in short supply these days. If you disagree with Bush, you are "confused", "traitor", "with the terrorists", "against the troops"... and if that isn't enough, plenty of churches will tell you that you are "immoral", "want to kill babies", etc etc.

One debate-killing tactic that is in vogue is to discuss the messenger rather than the ideas. If a perfectly good idea is advanced by a so-called "tree and Hillary loving Ted Kennedy liberal" then the idea is judged to be invalid. Very sad to live in times when folks believe that the ONLY good ideas come from right-wingers.

Terrorism is not the only threat to liberty.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen, your posts are almost directly from the American conservative commentary.


I know.
They see this and would like to keep it that way. This makes them Conservative. I see the same thing, think it's terifying, inevitable but quite funny at the same time. This makes me Absurdist (I suppose).

Quote:
"With a free media the peoples' will is expressed."


Well, it *is*.

Quote:
"Free markets are the best thing for the consumer."


I never said that. What you have is that people's short term aims are being satisfied as soon as they express them and they are proffitbale. US consumers seem very good at expressing short term goals like "I want food" and "I want a car" andf quite bad at expressing long term ones like "I'd like to be healthy" and "I'd klike my childeren to have some oil too". As a result they are now fat and running out of oil and have no idea how they got there.

I NEVER said any of this was a good idea, just that it worked that way. It should be clear that I beleive both free markets and democracy are proving to be terrible ideas because what people say they want and what's good for them aren't the same at all (this is a fundamental asumption that Democracy implies). However, it's people that are screwing themselves over (pardom my German), those "huge external forces" just make a proffit from this, they aren't the cause themselves. Mest definately you can't blame them once you figure out where you end up.

You don't have a free market anyway and I never said you did. Where's the sale on opium? Where can I rent a teenage girl?


Quote:
Free media is an illusion to pacify the people. The media is no more free now than when William Randolph Hearst and the muckrakers controlled it.


We are running around in circles this way. Why don't you tell me wether you watch tv or read newspapers and why?

Quote:
You are right, the media is looking for what color hats people wear. They make money on things like this because the corporations love it when superficial style is the focus of society. Sports is a godsend to them. But they avoid covering things that treaten their power such as poor people in the country, bad medical care standards, lower standards of living, polution, desparation in old people, hoplessness in the youth, unjust wars, injustice, etc.


Right! But sports is also a godsend to people who think poverty, bad medicinal care, unjust wars, injustice, polution and so on are the sort of topics they'd rather not hear about.

Of course that's a self destructive sentiment and it's very stupid to live that way. You can debate wether it's a good thing that people are free to live that way but when push comes to shove they use their freedom to live that way.

I don't think you quite grasped yet that I'm using the word "freedom" litterally and not in it's US sense with it's positive conotations.

I"m talking about freedom as in "once the safety is off the hammer has freedom to move". Freedom as in car gears on hillsides. It might be a terriffic idea to put you car in "free" on a hills side but only if you know where you are, where the hill is and where you'd like to go.

Those "superficial styles" from your perspective are the most profound factor (from their own perception) in many people's lives, BTW.


Quote:

Fox News used to have a big portion of the day devoted to featuring people who died fighting terror. They had a big bulletin board with pics sent in from the families. It got to be too big and started showing that we were losing a lot more people that was good for the administration's policies. Now, it is very rare to see anything but a casual mention of the death count. Only PBS gives each death a few seconds at the end of the nightly news. The conservatives are very active to change out the editorial staff of PBS and NPR, BTW.


Right!

And their customers like this because they don't like bad or complicated news.

Ins't showing dead soldiers agains the Geneva convention, BTW?

Quote:
The war in Iraq was entered because of oil. First the claim of WMD was trumpeted by the administation and the media puppets. Unfortunately for them, they were too incompetent to even fake WMDs. Well, then things changed suddenly to Iraq is critical to stop terrorists. The media companies do their job and indoctinate the public.


The war in Iraq was also supported by most Americans (meaning oil consumers) at the beginning. That's democracy for you. They suplied the money, they brought their sons, they shared the power and hence share responciblity. Notice by the way that I use "democracy" too in it's litteral sense, I"m just refering to the political system that gets called that name. I NEVER said I held that to be a good system or that I believed it was of benefit to voters in very case or even in a majority of cases.

Quote:
The status quo is that the oil companies are the most powerful force in the US society.


True, and that's because most US citisens elect to drive very inneficient cars without thinking.


Quote:
Enron was the biggest contributor the the Bush campaign in 2000. Whether there are republicans or democrats in power, it makes little difference to them because they and their other corporate counterparts control the finances of the system - the political process and the media.


Right. This is because most voters choose to vote for parties that get funded that way and don't demand that laws are made against this.


Even you yourself drive a car, maybe more then one, even you watch tv, maybe you even voted for one of the the two parties that works that way. How can you have any hope of anything changing that way?

Society is people; I find it far more terifying than Soilent Green.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
What I find sad and frightening about the political climate is that the Bush administration has "sold" the idea that to disagree with them is to be for the terrorists and against our troops.


This is the core.

The Bush administration has sold this idea. What doe this mean? As far as I'm aware I can only sell somethinging if somebody else wants to buy it.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20471
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
The Bush administration has sold this idea.


Which was quite easy at the time, just after the planes crashed into the buildings. Not to say this was not a terrible thing, but from that day on people seem to have an irrational fear for terrorism (which is fed by governments in every "free" country). People should just stop buying that, its bullshit.

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17606
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 124
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

We are running around in circles this way. Why don't you tell me wether you watch tv or read newspapers and why?


I watch TV and read newspapers (among other things).

Why? Sometimes there are good programs on TV - I use a VTR that is built into the cable box. I especially like the classic movies and the history channel. Also, I watch NASA TV when there is a space mission being covered. I am a Myth Busters fan, but the shows move a little too slowly, IMHO. Also, once in a while there is something worth watching on PBS, like Nova.

I watch the cable news channels when I'm feeling pretty good and need to get depressed again.

I read the newspaper to see what is happening in my local community. Funny, since the local paper is owned by the Chicago Tribune. The local employees have no editorial input, it's all centralized now. The only locally operated papers around here are ad sheets.

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
mtvic



Joined: Feb 03, 2003
Posts: 487
Location: Quakertown,PA
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:16 am    Post subject: MSM Laffs It Up Over Hate Mail Attack On Olbermann Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.infowars.com/articles/media/olbermann_msm_laughs_hate_mail_attack.htm

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/09/26/fox_news_ratings_continue_slide.php

_________________
"I'm the transmitter' I give information."
"You're the antenna,catch the vibration."
>>> Kraftwerk Radioactivity<<<
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 1 [16 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use