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Theoretical Technical Question: would this work?
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Bipolar Bear



Joined: Sep 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Theoretical Technical Question: would this work?
Subject description: Gates, sidechains and MIDI
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I had a wierd idea (came to me in a dream) and I need to know if anyone knows if it would work.

Okay, sloppy guitar and bass sound even sloppier when combined with computer-perfect rhythms of electronic music. So how about this: if you were running a sequencer in a live setting (that is, it wasn't all digital audio on Ableton or DJing, but actually had MIDI info), you dedicate one MIDI channel and isolate it so that it goes to a sound module that isn't actually plugged into the mixer/sound system.

Right, now you take the output of this sound module and plug it into the sidechain of a gate. As long as there was sound generated by the sound module (slaved to the midi sequencer), the gate would be open. As soon as the sound stopped, the gate would close. Then you run guitar through the gate.

Imagine all the tricks you could do with a programmable gate! 16th or 32nd note tremelo perfectly in time with the synths. Notes that cut off at exactly the right time, hits of guitar noise that correspond directly with symbol crashes or SFX. Weird rhythms of organic sound made synthetic. If nothing else, you could make a guitarist shut up whenever you wanted by closing his gate.

Would this work?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, it kinda works of sorts. You will lose the proper attack and envelope of the played phrases. The standard way to do this is to manually edit the lot in your DAW. If you use gating you will find out that it might at times not sound quite like guitars chiming away.. but rather something else. Usually a guitar treated this way will sound a bit syntish. It can be a nice effect.

You can reintroduce envelopes if you use a modular synth instead of a simple gate with sidechain. This still won´t sound quite like guitars, but who cares? It might sound better.
A modular synth will allow you to superimpose stepsequencer controlled filter patterns on the signal. ( This is called stepfiltering. ) This is worth checking out. You will be amazed.

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Last edited by elektro80 on Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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deknow



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...this is basically the "goa bass" sound. you have a constant bass sound, run it into a compressor, and then run the "thump thump" kick into the sidechain...you get that "BOOMwhaaaBOOMwhaa" with the bass opposite the kick.

as electro80 points out, this can be more interesting if you have more options like envelopes. also, step filtering is way fun....if you've seen the zvex "seekwah" pedal, then you have seen step filtering.

deknow
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
...this is basically the "goa bass" sound. you have a constant bass sound, run it into a compressor, and then run the "thump thump" kick into the sidechain...you get that "BOOMwhaaaBOOMwhaa" with the bass opposite the kick.


Quite true.

This sort of gating technique should been seen as one possible method within the realm of synthesis. You can take this in many directions and it can be quite useful. A hint.. you can combine this with vocoders and compressors.. and go completely wild. And who said you are suposed to use vocoders for voice only? Try a tapeloop with firecrackers and a rainstorm.. some vocoders.. some 12 string guitars.. some compressors.. some stepgating.. and then some stepfiltering.. and then some compressors and vocoders.. Laughing

Anyways, welcome to electro-music.com. This is where Wile E. Coyote gets his Acme mailorder stuff.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Completely OT but still serious fun: You can have stepsequencers running wild with notch filters. This does of course call for some imaginative splitbanding and more fun with compressors.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
...this is basically the "goa bass" sound. you have a constant bass sound, run it into a compressor, and then run the "thump thump" kick into the sidechain...you get that "BOOMwhaaaBOOMwhaa" with the bass opposite the kick.



This side of the pond the GOA effect is called stepsnuffing.

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Bipolar Bear



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While there are a bazillion things I'm sure you could do with this (now that I know it kinda works), not even touching on envelops and modualr synthesis, the biggest selling point for me is improving guitar timing live. I've seen a lot of live industrial bands with guitars that ring when they aren't supposed to, are slightly off time due to bad and/or drunk players, or just seem amateurish by comparison to the clockwork precision of a sequencer. It's so easy to make a guitar sound good in a recording studio, but live is a whole other beast.

My little group of freaks are meeting with potential guitarists to add a little griminess and aggression to our music, and I don't want to be one of those bands where the guitar sticks out like a sore thumb. Maybe I'm just being a control freak.

So, if this gate were used sparingly: closed for passages where there are no guitars and at the end of phrases rather than after every note/chord, how effective would this be? Would tidying up guitar parts live be worth the trouble? Would it even sound good?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I did the very same thing in 78. You should be aware that using gates and sidechaining this way kinda creates a playable EFX unit. With some serious thinking involved you might end up with a problem solver which turns into an instrument which is quite expressive. And do keep some compressors around. You will need them.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bipolar Bear wrote:
..the biggest selling point for me is improving guitar timing live.


You are not really accomplishing that. Instead you have created a patch which is the new real instrument. You will discover that it is possible to play this well. And you will also discover that it is possible to make it sound completely mindless. This is not something you plug the guitar dudes into, but rather something you make them learn to play. In your case.. possibly at gunpoint?? Very Happy You need any suggestion for nice imported 9mm handguns?

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Bipolar Bear



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Clearly my problem stems from holding guitarists to my own high standards of bass playing.

Thanks for the advice, it's been VERY helpful. I think I have all the gear on hand to experiment with this. Maybe the openness of a guitarist to try this out will be one of the things that will get him a job. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
who said you are suposed to use vocoders for voice only?

right, "drumcoding" is an old technique Exclamation

arrow http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct03/articles/qanda.htm?print=yes

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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
deknow wrote:
...this is basically the "goa bass" sound. you have a constant bass sound, run it into a compressor, and then run the "thump thump" kick into the sidechain...you get that "BOOMwhaaaBOOMwhaa" with the bass opposite the kick.


This side of the pond the GOA effect is called stepsnuffing.


Oh, I just thought it was bad mixing Twisted Evil

James

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
deknow wrote:
...this is basically the "goa bass" sound. you have a constant bass sound, run it into a compressor, and then run the "thump thump" kick into the sidechain...you get that "BOOMwhaaaBOOMwhaa" with the bass opposite the kick.


This side of the pond the GOA effect is called stepsnuffing.


Oh, I just thought it was bad mixing Twisted Evil

James


Laughing

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