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A touch of imperfection is always right
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: A touch of imperfection is always right Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We have discussed analogue gear before and some wisdoms uncovered were:

1. Get the gainstructure right
2. Understand the gainstructure
3. Analogue devices aren´t always doing what they are supposed to.
4. Analogue warmth is a very fuzzy term that is hardly useful at all.

One of the reasons many of us still have analogue gear around is to add various forms of distortion to a signal. One of the missing links has been good old IM, but now this is availabe in digital form too.

http://www.michaelkingston.fi/retroband/



Quote:
As opposed to sterile but perfect digital sound, IM is a distortion that can sound good. It happens especially in less than ideal analogue class A/B gain staging, which means it's present in a plenty of vintage gear.

There are three different models in RetroBand using the IM process, allowing good range of sound shaping. No particular piece of equipment is simulated in any of them, but the combined flexibility can generate some of the desirable aspects of great sounding analogue gear. It could be said IM is one of the minor missing links to analogue sound in a digital audio workstation


I don´t know how good this plgin is, but the idea is excellent.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: A touch of imperfection is always right Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
One of the missing links has been good old IM, but now this is availabe in digital form too.

IM stands for IMperfection, right Question

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Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

google it baby !
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
google it baby !

thanks Very Happy
Quote:
Instant messaging or IM is a form of real-time communication between two or more people based on typed text. The text is conveyed via computers connected over a network such as the Internet.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok


Intermodulation distortion. Signals in output caused by interaction of two or more input signals but not harmonically related to them. Expressed as a percentage of the total signal output.


But there is a bit more to it than this because some circuits that go all IM on you will often do some other really funny stuff too.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
google it baby !

thanks Very Happy
Quote:
Instant messaging or IM is a form of real-time communication between two or more people based on typed text. The text is conveyed via computers connected over a network such as the Internet.



You have definitively not earned yourself that "10 really loud sessions at Mrs. Boboloni´s Spanking Parlor" - card... this time....

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's like hoping to make a Steinway grand piano sound like a Farfisa organ. it does not make sense (to me) Idea
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: A touch of imperfection is always right Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
One of the reasons many of us still have analogue gear around is to add various forms of distortion to a signal


So true!

Before I had a synth I use to run my Hammond Organ's line level output into the input of a J.C. Penny's tape recorder -- and I overdrove the heck out of it. Oh, and I did get some nice IM along with clipping.

Particularly with the Hammond's drawbars -- they are tempered (rather than perfect intervals) so the beats would transform into SWEET IM when processed thru my J.C. Penny's recorder.

Gads... I still wish I had that lil' recorder. 5" reels and a screw-on capstan sleeve. What more could anyone need?

Anyway... I have a track that utilizes the Hammond-J.C. Penny setup... I don't have an .mp3 version of it so I'll post it later.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
it's like hoping to make a Steinway grand piano sound like a Farfisa organ. it does not make sense (to me) Idea


Don´t be shy.. confess to your secret distorted ways... Cool

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: A touch of imperfection is always right Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
One of the reasons many of us still have analogue gear around is to add various forms of distortion to a signal


So true!



It is!

IMO, noise, fuzz and intermodulation tricks the brain into thinking that there is more than one sound source being produced at any one time.

I brought this very arguement up on the NM@code404 list ages ago, but no one would listen to me, too busy I presume, working out what gold interconnect to connect to their precious DAT recorders! Shocked

Go listen to "Watussi" by Harmonia some time, or better still "Frankie Teardrop" by Suicide, and you'll get what I mean Smile

Some of the best recordings that I've ever heard in more recent years, which have warmth to them, were recorded with a Fostex R8.

I've also recently purchased an Ensoniq DP/4- which is noisy, it hums (sometimes) and if fedback on itself, behaves just like and analogue tape delay. Fantastic! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's unbelievable that the more we get technologically advanced the more we (you, actually) long for older technology thinking
of course in those long gone days we (and I mean we) hoped for better recording quality trying to get rid of noise, IM distortion etc. Rolling Eyes
I want my recordings to be squeaky clean, damn Exclamation Shocked

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

analog does not always equal distortion...i am using a Urei LA-3 for lots of things...no distortion whatsoever..but sounds amazing
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting. If one is trying to emulate old analog synth gear, the adding of IM is pointless because design technolgy got IM down to very low level by the early 1960s - even earlier for high-end stuff. I'm not saying IM doesn't have musical purposes, but Moog, Buchla, Arp, Oberheim, etc designed it out of their gear.

I think Tom has it right - if you want that vintage sound, add hum and hiss. Laughing

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

don't get me wrong, I too like stuff which is noise and distortion free- especially in classical recordings, as it is important to hear the individual cmponents of the orchestra, but sometimes it's really nice to also hear music recorded with less-high quality equipment. I used to prefer using pedals instead of rack gear because it wasn't 'studio quality'- adding a warmth that the rack gear couldn't achieve.

The idea behind this plug in sounds very interesting (pardon the pun)- but I bet it costs an arm and a leg!- Kinda defeats the object of the exercise though? Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
The idea behind this plug in sounds very interesting (pardon the pun)- but I bet it costs an arm and a leg!- Kinda defeats the object of the exercise though? Laughing




Quote:
RetroBand is available for purchase now for the price of EUR35. This introduction offer ends on the first of november 2006, and the price is EUR49 after that.


There is a lite version which is supposedly free too.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paul e. wrote:
analog does not always equal distortion...i am using a Urei LA-3 for lots of things...no distortion whatsoever..but sounds amazing


It can be argued that the LA-3 does indeed add distortion. Compression itself can be termed as a type of distortion.

I am a big fan of transparent recording gear. I do however think of whatever that can be used for soundshaping as useful. There is no contradiction here. What I do see as problematic is the term analogue warmth, the related tube mythology and how the music gear rags are teaching people NOT to listen to what they actually have captured "on tape". What is this shit? Project studio owners are supposed to hide whimpering in holes in the ground simply because they haven´t yet aquired the abslutely latest in smart warming plugins and tube thingies. Digital recording does not have to be cold and sterile. That said, it was quite possible to make analogue recordings that would end up cold and sterile too.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember a recording I did on a Yamaha 4-track which ended up having everything on two tracks except for the lead guitar and the lead vocal, which each had a track of their own. When I dubbed it down to 2-track I put all 4 tracks through various amounts of reverb on the fly, that, coupled with the Dbx compression created this interplay between tracks which 1. I think was IM, 2. I have never been able to reproduce using digital recording techniques, and 3. sounded absolutely brilliant.

I love distortion. Even digital distortion, that crazy little beasty with a voice like God, has a place in the scheme of things. Everything contains distortion to a greater or lesser degree. People who make out that distortion is inheritly bad remind me of people who refuse to own their shadows. The deliciously dark and tasty impurities of the world, and our psychs will find a way to be expressed whether we like it or not. If you spend thousands of dollars trying to remove every last spot of sonic imperfection from your audio equipment, and then inadvertantly use a dishcloth to wipe something off the floor, or forget to change the oil in the car, or pay big bucks for food when you don't know how it has been prepared, I laugh at you! Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Well, the distortion topic continues! Below is a link to the promised post wherein I used a genuine JC Penny's recorder as a distortion unit. With limited budget and equipment, I had to be resourceful.

Does this count as a double-post? Cry foul if need be. Just wasn't sure which thread to post this track on. Hope you enjoy this.

-- Kevin

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-12607-36.html
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
Does this count as a double-post? Cry foul if need be. Just wasn't sure which thread to post this track on.


No, this is not a double post - which would be exactly the same post on two forums or threads. This is a link - maybe one could call it a cross link - but it is very appropriate. I do this kind of post all the time to try to get cross fertilization in different discussions. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
People who make out that distortion is inheritly bad remind me of people who refuse to own their shadows. The deliciously dark and tasty impurities of the world, and our psychs will find a way to be expressed whether we like it or not. If you spend thousands of dollars trying to remove every last spot of sonic imperfection from your audio equipment, and then inadvertantly use a dishcloth to wipe something off the floor, or forget to change the oil in the car, or pay big bucks for food when you don't know how it has been prepared, I laugh at you! Laughing


Amen, brother! Preach it to me!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

opg wrote:
Uncle Krunkus wrote:
People who make out that distortion is inheritly bad remind me of people who refuse to own their shadows. The deliciously dark and tasty impurities of the world, and our psychs will find a way to be expressed whether we like it or not. If you spend thousands of dollars trying to remove every last spot of sonic imperfection from your audio equipment, and then inadvertantly use a dishcloth to wipe something off the floor, or forget to change the oil in the car, or pay big bucks for food when you don't know how it has been prepared, I laugh at you! Laughing


Amen, brother! Preach it to me!


Distortion is very important to me. My PA system cabs are all active bi-amped along with active subs so that every nuance of distortion can be reproduced with accuracy and clarity. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus, what if you spend thousands of dollars trying to remove every last spot of sonic imperfection from your audio equipment, and then do not use a dishcloth to wipe something off the floor, or remember to change the oil in the car, or do not pay big bucks for food when you don't know how it has been prepared Question Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I don't know! Laughing
I don't have the answers to everything!
I created this world so that some of you humans could work some stuff out for yourselves!
I'm sure something won't be as perfect as what you think it is! Laughing Shocked

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
Distortion is very important to me. My PA system cabs are all active bi-amped along with active subs so that every nuance of distortion can be reproduced with accuracy and clarity. Twisted Evil


Yes, well, I spent months working on the enclosures, crossovers and impulse response of a crappy old set of JVC speakers from the 70s so that I could be sure they were producing the clearest, most accurate crap they were capable of. It was very satisfying. Wink Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:

I'm sure something won't be as perfect as what you think it is! Laughing Shocked

I think many of us are prone to fool ourselves into believing perfection is attainable on Earth Cool Thanks Lord of the Krunkus to remind us of the Truth Very Happy

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