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Store more than 8 variations within a single patch.
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Do you want to be able to store more than 8 variations into a single patch?
Yeah Baby Yeah, bring it on, right now!
45%
 45%  [ 9 ]
Mmm... OK, I can see the use, but don't really need it!
45%
 45%  [ 9 ]
Aaaargh, no! 8 Variations is way too much already!
10%
 10%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 20

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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:04 am    Post subject: Store more than 8 variations within a single patch. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One of the features in the G2 that's most appreciated by me is
the functionality that allows you to save a number of variations
into a pach.
The only problem I now find myself running into all the time is
that the number of variations ( 8 ) is rather limited...

I use the G2 a lot for rhytmical stuff, and I would love to be able
to store more than 8 variations into a patch, especially when you
can sequence those variations!
Most of that stuff are intricate, fast, percussive rhythms. If i want to use
this in tracks, there is a definite need for me to switch between variations
a lot, and have more of them available.

Don't get me wrong, the G2 is an absolute dream-machine for this,
but it would be soooo much easier just to store another 120 variations Smile
(I say 120, because with the 8 that are already there, that would make
128, which obviously would make the variation parameter very easy to
modulate!).

As memory to store performances and patches on the G2 seems to be
dynamically allocated, the increased size of the stored patches should
be no problem (I suppose that variation data only gets added into a patch
once a variation is stored)
And I'll take it that I can store less patches into my G2 when I choose
to save more variations within those patches...

What do you all think?

Regards,

The Why Project
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was just browsing the archives, and it seems that this idea has been
proposed before:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-1912.html

Regards,

The Why Project
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varice



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

128 variations per patch - Holy sh*t!!! I would never be able to keep up with all of them - thats more than the total patch memory of my Prophet-5 (120)! I would be for more variations - but only if non-unique variations did not take up more DSP/patch memory space.
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Two years after the initial request, I'd like to see if I can find more people
to endorse this request... It's still important to me that this would become
possible!

Please
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Store more than 8 variations within a single patch. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Why Project wrote:
(I suppose that variation data only gets added into a patch once a variation is stored)


I can't look into the G2's patch memory, but for patches on disk, and in MIDI dumps, the current 8 (9 actually, the init variation being the 9th) variations are always present. This would have to be changed probably for 120 extra variations Very Happy

Reading you message I can see your point in wanting these though.

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jamos



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Pointless.

The variation system as it stands is not very useful for me; it's too hard to use in a way that makes sense. Rather than adding more variations, I'd like to see improvements to the existsing syste the ability to lock out modules or parameters from the variation; the ability to edit across all variations; etc.

Adding more variations would just make the system that much harder to use.
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W.T.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it is a good idea.
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dasz



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

variation exclude is a given .. I personally communicated this to the Clavia developers with examples -- they do understand this ...

I would like at least 64 variations (as the 8 variation buttons could be reused for 8 banks of 8 variations with a multi button combination -- like shift but alas this is taken ;( ..

but for some they like to use only 8. so -- if you are using more than one bank of 8 variations, then you can select additional banks using shift(or shift double hit)+variation # to select the bank. if a bank has not been saved to then it is not selectable (apart from the 1st 8 vairations)

just an idea.
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One thing I don't think anyone has considered, is that increasing the number of variations by some large factor such as 8 would reduce the number of patches and performances that could be stored in the instrument by the same factor.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Since there are four slots, one can load a patch in each one. If each patch has 8 variations, that's 32 variations.
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

First a big thank you for participating in this discussion!

Mosc: Your idea won't do for me, as my performances often use all four
slots, and I would like to be able to do the same thing in many slots.
In this way you can start to work with the G2 as a proper multi-track loop-
sequencer, but with all the added goodies of that beautiful modular
environment!

Jamos: If you don't want to use more variations, I can't see why it would
become harder to use the G2? After all, what you describe is directly
related to the number of variations you choose to store?
I do appreciate your ideas about inter-variation editability, that's a sweet
feature too Smile
As you'll read in my first post in this thread, I did think about the impact
on patch/performance storage, and the trade-off I can see, I'm willing to
take. Also, that trade-off should not affect people that don't want to use
so many variations within one patch.


This feature though would really make the G2 a box that can do a proper
track of my stuff within the box without an extremely lengthy dissection
process outside that box before I can put things together as I planned.

I've heard some amazing things done within a single performance, but the
stuff I do is really based on a mix between loads of different sounds and
relentless rhythmic variation. Both those elements are generated within
the G2 and have overlapping parameters, which means that I really don't
have enough variations available right now to finish the job...

Even two years after my first post, it's the one brick wall I keep on hitting
with what I want to do with the G2: The machines (performances) I've
built could be so much more effective if only there were more variations.
They each contain about a whole album of music/concepts, but this way
it's costing me an uninspiring amount of effort to get it it all out of the
box...
Also, it would allow me to do exactly the same thing live, from one
performance, without to have to juggle with the load delay, or at least less
often!

Some of you might say that it sounds like I should consider other
platforms like Max/MSP or Reaktor, but however much I enjoy working
(regularly) with Max/MSP, the restriction of the higher level objects and
DSP availability of the G2 (and MicroModular) fits my workflow like a glove!

Anyway, thanks once more for adding to this discussion, if any of you has
a different angle on this, please feel free to jump in Smile

Regards,

The Why Project
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds like you have given this a lot of thought. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Clavia to address this, unfortunately. Maybe you have just cause to buy another G2. I've been leaning that way myself.
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc, thank you for spoiling the fun, I just started to gather some
hope Mr. Green

I'm aware that this will probably not be implemented, although in my
opinion, it could actually assist Clavia in marketing this device.
It would allow some excellent performances to store way more sounds
in their variations, showing more presets per performance/patch than
can now be done, and as such adding easily accessible versatility...

Regards,

The Why Project
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jamos



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Why Project wrote:

Jamos: If you don't want to use more variations, I can't see why it would
become harder to use the G2? After all, what you describe is directly
related to the number of variations you choose to store?


The current system is relatively easy to use (one button, one variation). There is a direct correlation between the hardware and result, which is one of the things we love about hardware instruments. To get 128 variations would require some sort of kludge - key combinations, multiple keystrokes, etc. And how would the front panel indicate that you are on variation 11 rather than variation 3 (for example)?

The Why Project wrote:

As you'll read in my first post in this thread, I did think about the impact
on patch/performance storage, and the trade-off I can see, I'm willing to
take. Also, that trade-off should not affect people that don't want to use
so many variations within one patch.


That's because you misunderstand how the G2 stores data. Each patch contains 8 variations, even if they have not yet been written. The assumption that the variations do not exist until they are written is false. You might be willing to make that tradeoff, but you can probably imagine that most other users would not be happy, especially those who have large numbers of patches in their systems that suddenly won't fit anymore.

My suggestion: Learn to use the instrument on its own terms, rather than dreaming about how cool it would be if only certain fundamental aspects of its design were changed.
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:

The current system is relatively easy to use (one button, one variation). There is a direct correlation between the hardware and result, which is one of the things we love about hardware instruments. To get 128 variations would require some sort of kludge - key combinations, multiple keystrokes, etc. And how would the front panel indicate that you are on variation 11 rather than variation 3 (for example)?


I'm an engine user, so all I interact with is the software interface, where
this is not an issue. I do appreciate your concern on this though, and
agree that if this feature would be implemented, it must be implemented
in a way that fully works with the keys versions too without making their
interface more complicated.

jamos wrote:

That's because you misunderstand how the G2 stores data. Each patch contains 8 variations, even if they have not yet been written. The assumption that the variations do not exist until they are written is false. You might be willing to make that tradeoff, but you can probably imagine that most other users would not be happy, especially those who have large numbers of patches in their systems that suddenly won't fit anymore.


OK, I've understood that now. However, this doesn't mean that this can't
be solved. Some form of a compression/decompression schema might
be a solution to that.

jamos wrote:

My suggestion: Learn to use the instrument on its own terms, rather than dreaming about how cool it would be if only certain fundamental aspects of its design were changed.


I don't think that's a fair comment. I feel completely proficient with
practically every aspect of what I do with the G2, and as such I'm
convinced that I have learnt to use the instrument on it's own terms.
So, as I've explained above, it's the single brick wall that I've been hitting,
and for the way I want to work with the G2 I do believe this is the only
solution.

I'm certainly don't consider myself to be dreaming how cool it could be to
change 'fundamental aspects' of the G2's design.
First off, I would question if the change I propose is indeed a change to
a fundamental aspect. I don't consider the amount of variations a to be
just that, IMHO it's a part of the available resources that I (and many
others) require to work on this platform. I merely propose to expand that
specific resource.
Secondly, I'm not dreaming about anything here. After 2.5 years of
intensive interaction with the box, I can do great things with it, but it does
not suit the way I work, because of this one issue.
From your reply it almost seems that you think that I might not have put
in the effort to find a workaround, while in fact I've spent more than half
my total time on the G2 those past 2.5 years on finding workarounds, and
the only solution I can come up with is this one, every time I work on it!

Let it be clear that I don't want this dicussion to be about why this change
should or should not be done, that's beside the point.
The point is that this discussion should allow us to find a way that this can
be implemented with no negative impact on any user's satisfaction. If
that can be worked out, and if there's enough support for this change
(which I'm so obviously rallying for), then Clavia would (maybe!) be
willing to put this feature request on their prioritisation list when they
start working on a G2 update...

I hope that puts my request in a bit more perspective for you?

Kind regards,

The Why Project
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Antimon



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, this is the wish list, after all. We're allowed to wish for anything we want. Very Happy

Re: the marketing argument. One problem with the G2 seems to be that that argument can be made for many different things in the G2 - maybe colliding ones sometimes (not necessarily saying that variations++ collides with anything). The metaphor "swiss army knife" is very appropriate.

Maybe that makes it difficult for Clavia to focus sometimes, although if they fixed their Commodorian marketing technique they might afford it better, I think. The G2 deserves to sell shitloads more than it does.

/Stefan

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The parameter page buttons don't have a shift function yet. I suspect the pch2 file format has a 'size of chunk' parameter so extending should not be a problem. Come to think of it, I have a lot of big patches that only use one variation, so dynamic variation storage would help anyway.

If the G2/X could optionally support 32+ variations, it would be a real drop in replacement for a DX7 Laughing sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, maybe all that's needed is a tool to tell exactly what's different between variations, and assign those parameters to MIDI. Then simple patch dumps to a librarian would do all the rest of the storage. A this will extend the variations to infinity. or at least 128 Factorial ^2.

.
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm looking to be able to use different variations within my machines
(performances) directly, it's not the storage aspect that bothers me,
it's the accessibility aspect that poses my problem...

With SysEx dumps, I still can't use the dumped stuff within my variations
directly/continously...

Hope that makes sense Mr. Green

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The Why Project
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I understand your issue, and agree it would be nice, but I was offering a possible solution to it. I think it would have been better for the G2 if it had an SD/MMC card slot. Endless storage, so that part of the issue would be mute. And, just maybe, we'd get samples also!
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dasz



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
One thing I don't think anyone has considered, is that increasing the number of variations by some large factor such as 8 would reduce the number of patches and performances that could be stored in the instrument by the same factor.


Why not make this something which is selectable per patch. # of banks needed can be set at the patch level.

I don't know about you jamos, but I have around 500-700 original patches which I created (NM1 + G2), which is waaaay below the current patch limit of 128 * 32 or 4096 patches total. I'd rather have more variations than knowing the fact that I may not fill the patch limit of this synthesizer in the next 20 years. If I did do this and did not back it all up on a cd (which I do on a regular basis), that would be risky.

I'd take more flexibility per patch (ie less muting when changing patches) rather more patch storage space than I think I'll ever use.

To me, the panel is begging for this functionality. You should see me plahy a G2 patch -- variations are everything. More variations (along with variation exclusion) could make my patches last a lot longer ...

Your thoughts? Anyone?
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Variations don't take up that much space (they aren't the module & connection info, just certain knobs & settings). I guess the bigger deal is how to make the user interface accept such a thing, so it's still playable.
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dasz wrote:
More variations (along with variation exclusion) could make my patches last a lot longer .../Dasz


Great comment, I could almost express my own requirement that way!

As I use the engine, I really can't comment on how to make this work with
the keys versions, but I really appreciate that this is being discussed! I'll
try to add where I can.

Regards,

Dino
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Variations are simply settings on certain knobs and buttons. Almost everything in the G2 can be controlled from MIDI CC messages. One could devise a way to send series of MIDI messages from a computer and then have virtually unlimited variations. There are many programs that could be applied to do this I would think.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah, but mosc, you've seen me tweak, and you know access to more variations would make me go/evolve a patch lot further.

If I were to use an external sequencer/controller (MIDI CC assign) -- I still have a problem. A patch can have a lot more than 127 knobs on it which could be changing. Imagine using 8 sequencers - that alone would take up 128 cc's for each step.


Either we get more variations, patterns in sequencers, or Clavia removes the muting during patch loads. Either solution would work fine for me.


I think I've made my point.
/Dasz

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