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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Quadraphonic G2 patches
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Parametex



Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject:  Quadraphonic G2 patches Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello good people!

Could any of you kind EM people here point me to G2 patches that utilize its 4 outputs in quadraphonic way. I have arranged my speakers now in a way that I can start experimenting on 4 speaker patches.

Any links, pointers and such would be highly appreciated!

Cheers!
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richardnixon



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I actually haven't come across a patch yet that does this (although I haven't examined every patch on the boards here). It's a very intriguing idea though. A easy place to start would be to check out the "4-voice" patch on page 143 of the G2 manual. Essentially it's a patch that uses the Voice Num. value to create a slight detune for each new voice. You then expand this patch with a 1->8 Multiplexer module that routes to one of the 4 outputs...so not only does each voice have a unique detuning, but each voice will come out a different speaker.

You could obviously get much more sophisticated than this, but it's an easy place to start.

I might have to pickup an extra pair of speakers now Very Happy

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Chet



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a patch that, I think, will pan a sound source in a circle around the listener. It has three panel controls: speed, depth, and direction.

I don't have a surround system, so I can't listen to it myself. If it doesn't operate correctly, let me know. The spin sequence is output 1, then 2, then 3, then 4. Depending on how your G2 is connected to your speakers, you may need to swap some outputs to get the right effect.

If it works, you could place two of these after one of Rob's crossovers and make yourself a rotating speaker system.


4Ch-Spinner.pch2
 Description:
FX patch for rotating a sound source among the G2's four audio outputs.

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 Filename:  4Ch-Spinner.pch2
 Filesize:  2.43 KB
 Downloaded:  635 Time(s)

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cebec



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice, I've been thinking about how to do this, too. I have a quadraphonic amp/receiver with a pair of speakers and a pair of event ps6 monitors for the studio. Not sure how I'd set this up for maximum effect...
Anyway, FWIW, there's a couple of 'hidden' quadraphonic utility modules in the G2 editor. Hopefully, they, among others, will see the light of day in a near-future update.Twisted Evil
Thanks for the patch, Chet. I'll try this out, eventually...
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Chet, this works. Thanks.

There is something I'm trying to do but I can't think of a way to do it. I'd like one knob for rate and direction. The knob would be bipolar. At the center, 0, postion the rotation would stop. Turn it to the right and the rotation would go clockwise; to the left it would go counter clockwise.

I was able to do this on a Kyma system because you can specify a 0 hz oscillator. How can one do this on the G2?

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:


I was able to do this on a Kyma system because you can specify a 0 hz oscillator. How can one do this on the G2?


The LFO shape oscillators can effectively be 0 Hz LFO's by using the direction input, but you'll also need to make a 180 degree phase jump at the zero volt control input point I guess (and maybe reverse the sync order ...).

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Chet



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Jan. I never knew the shape LFO could do that. That's a neat trick.

I think this patch works. When the speed drops below zero, the second LFO is triggered by the falling edge of the first LFO, instead of by the rising edge. I had to add the pulse modules because without them there would occasionally be clicks when passing through the zero point.


4Ch-Spinner-2.pch2
 Description:
A quadraphonic spinner with a single combined rate and direction control.

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 Filename:  4Ch-Spinner-2.pch2
 Filesize:  2.53 KB
 Downloaded:  704 Time(s)

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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent. You are a better patcher than me because I was trying to get this to work and couldn't get rid of clicks at the zero speed transision points. Thank you, Chet.

But, in thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that synced LFOs wasn't the best or most general solution. I was thinking what is needed is a quad-panner block that could be fed with any control voltage. In the case of the rotator, it would be fed with a ramp, or sawtooth oscillator.

Here's how it would work:

- one signal in, four signals out; like this circuit
- one CV in for angle:
Code:
-64 Rear         (-180 degrees)
-32 Left         (-90 degrees)
  0 Front center (0 degrees)
+32 Right        (90 degrees)
+64 Rear         (-180 degrees)

Note that in the degenerate case of stereo, where there are only two speakers, this works exactly like the G2's stereo pan module.

- one CV for depth.
Code:
-64 zero depth; all channels are on no matter what the position of the Angle CV.
  0 Normal depth: Pan pretty much where the sound seems to come form the speakers. Example: when the Angel is 0, the left and right would be on equally (-3 dB each) and the rear speakers would be off.
+64 Extreme distance: As the sound is panned around, it sounds very distant...

- one CV for overall level

There would be indifidual controls for each channel to enable the setting of the speaker position. I suggest the use of the same system as the proposed angle. Example, for a square room with one speaker in each corner, these speaker angle controls would be set like this:

LF -16
RF +16
RR +48
LR -48

In my stuio where for physical reasons the rear speakers are a bit too close, then the settings would be:

LF -16
RF +16
RR +55
LR -55

Thus, with these individual settings, you could accomodate virtually any speaker settings. Also, the system could be used for 3 channel as well.

There is the issue of the pan response curves for signals that are on two or more channels at the same time. This is a bit like the G2s Log and Lin settings on the pan module. I haven't thought through this, but something approriate should be figured out.

Hope this post is seen as an attempt to simulate discussion and experimentation, and not criticism. I wish I was a better patcher and would just post at patch that did this. But I'll be trying.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@ Chet: nice trick to cheaply get the zero crossings OK !

@ Howard: with a bit of extra work on Chet's patch I think this generalizaton might be doable.

Some control circuitry before the final VCA's (for the speaker settings), and a differentiator before the speed control, something like that.

The use of the differentiator would make the LFO's behave like a lookup table - the outputs will freeze on their current value when the input signal is steady.

Alternatively you could use a short expansion (something like three or four terms) of the Taylor series for the sine and cosine functions (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_series for a definition of those)

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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What's the easiest way to wrap a signal? For example, say you add 16 to a ramp wave. You want the resulting ramp to snap down to -64 when it goes above 64.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A note quantizer set to quantize to the wanted range (+-64 in your case) and a mixer 2-1B, the one with the invertable inputs. Subtract the quantized input signal from the untreated input signal. I believe this to have some problems around zero as well, but the whole thing could be scaled to work with positive signals only.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ehm, and as I was working on finding out about the parameter ranges for LfoShpA ... setting the dir input to zero and resetting the thing should then make the lookup table action possible through the phase input ... maybe Very Happy
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Chet



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Howard, as I read about your generalized panner, I was reminded of two modules that appeared in some early G2 promotional stuff, but never made it into production: a four-channel panner and a four-channel xfader.

Each had two control inputs: one for position, and the other for spread. It's a shame they haven't made it into the editor (yet?).

I don't think I'm going to go further on this. But if I had four speakers, I think I would. I've wondered how good a split bass/horn leslie would sound like if implemented like this.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, too bad we'll probably never see those modules in the G2. I've been working on this generalized panner but haven't got it to work yet. It will take a DSP just for one 4 channel device the way I'm doing it. --sigh--
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

try to KISS Exclamation

Earlier today I threw away about 5000 lines out of 12000 of code, it got faster, more flexible and better readable/maintainable.

but it would help a lot to have proper math on that damned synth Very Happy ehm Sad

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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Chet, this works. Thanks.
I was able to do this on a Kyma system because you can specify a 0 hz oscillator. How can one do this on the G2?


What does a 0hz oscillator do- or sound like?

If it's running at 0hz- is there any output at all? Is it just a steady level?
The terms 0hz and oscillator seem to be mutually exclusive in this context, but I"m sure that's not the case.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cappy2112 wrote:
The terms 0hz and oscillator seem to be mutually exclusive in this context, but I"m sure that's not the case.


Good point. It's called an oscillator because it is an oscillator (module). But it can be set to oscillato so slow that it doesn't oscillate anymore; it has been reduced to a lookup table effectivly.

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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
cappy2112 wrote:
The terms 0hz and oscillator seem to be mutually exclusive in this context, but I"m sure that's not the case.


Good point. It's called an oscillator because it is an oscillator (module). But it can be set to oscillato so slow that it doesn't oscillate anymore; it has been reduced to a lookup table effectivly.


It it correct to say it's output is a steady-state, like a DC level?
If an oscillator doesn't oscillate and effectively becomes a lookup table, what is it's purpose?

Let's assume the G2 has one of these modules. How would it be used?


Edit
Rob talks about a Zero Hertz oscillator here
http://www.clavia.se/nordmodular/Modularzone/FMsynthesis.html

Frequency ratios and fixed formants

Last but not least, it also makes a difference if we modulate an oscillator with a specific frequency in a given ratio to the frequency of the modulating oscilator, or if we modulate an oscillator with a basic frequency of zero Hertz. If an oscillator is set to zero frequency it doesn't generate sound at all. This can be done by feeding a signal of zero units into a slave oscillators grey input. Modulating a frequency of zero Hz means that we will sweep the frequency around zero Hz. This will in effect give fixed formants in the resulting waveform. In addition to these fixed formants the frequency of the resulting waveform will also be the same as the frequency of the modulating oscillator. As we modulate "silence" in the rhythm of the modulating oscillator, it is only the modulating oscillators fundamental frequency that defines the resulting fundamental frequency in the mathematics. This also opens up the possibility to FM an oscillator with an outside audiosignal in a more or less predictable way. The resulting waveform will inherit its resulting fundamental frequency from that outside signal. This subject is also described in the Softsync workshop.

To my knowledge, at the moment of this writing, only the Modular possesses all of the mentioned features in a freely programmable way.


The theory is hard to imagine until you can hear the sound
http://www.analoguehaven.com/cyndustries/zeroscillator/
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cappy2112 wrote:
Let's assume the G2 has one of these modules.


Most of the audio rate oscillators can be set to 0 Hz in the part(ial) mode - lookup can be performed through the FM modulation inputs.

There also is an LFO version avaialable, LfoShpA has a direction input, setting that one to 0 freezes the LFO, the lookup can be performed through the Phase input.

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