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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
G2X audio outputs balanced or unbalanced?
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kmmcdonald



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: G2X audio outputs balanced or unbalanced? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Clavia technical support says that the G2X audio outputs are balanced. This comes as a complete surprise to me. I'd like a second opinion.

Can you all here verify this?

thanks

Keith

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SecretAsianMan



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This would be a surprise to me also. I thought the manual said they were unbalanced? I'd look at my own if I weren't already in bed.
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G2DREAM



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is from the Clavia Nord G2 manual 1.4:
"AUDIO OUTPUTS
The unbalanced, line level (-10 dBV) audio outputs OUTPUT 1-4 route the audio signals from the four
virtual mix buses in Nord Modular G2. Use OUTPUT 1 if you are going to use Nord Modular G2 with a
mono sound system. If only OUTPUT 1 is connected, the audio from OUTPUT 2 is mixed to OUTPUT 1.
AUDIO INPUTS
By connecting external sound sources to the unbalanced, line level (-10 dBV) inputs INPUT 1-4, you can
feed audio signals into the G2 and process the audio with any of the available G2 modules."
Confused Confused Question
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-10 dBV !? Shocked ...no wonder everybody is complaining about the low output level of the G2! Gee... 10dBV is consumer equipment output level. Confused Why didn't they go along and use RCA jack connections too, while they were at it? Rolling Eyes
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:
-10 dBV !? Shocked ...no wonder everybody is complaining about the low output level of the G2! Gee... 10dBV is consumer equipment output level. Confused Why didn't they go along and use RCA jack connections too, while they were at it? Rolling Eyes


AFAIK that's standard on most synths. With +4 it's easy to overload normal line inputs.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, this is depressing. One would have thought that proper balanced outputs with pro levels would have been standard by now. Rolling Eyes
Clavia is however not much worse than any other of the synth manufactureres out there.

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tombola



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmm.... Access Virus TI has balanced outs. Alesis Fusion has balanced outs. Alesis Ion has balanced outs.

Korg stuff seems to be unbalanced.

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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never been in a situation that required a synth to have balanced outs, so I don't miss it at all. YMMV of course.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree, balanced out should be standard, but DI boxes aren't all that expensive.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tend to think that with 24 bit audio, and 96kHz sample rates, balanced outs should be required just to take advantage of the resolution that's available.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Balanced outputs are nice to have, but not that much of a issue. Consumer output level (-10dB) instead of pro audio output level (+4dB) is far more bothersome. Everytime I play the G2 at a venue, the techs always ask me to give them a hotter signal. "Uh sorry, I can't. I'm cranked to the max. Embarassed" Talk about embarrassment... Rolling Eyes
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
I tend to think that with 24 bit audio, and 96kHz sample rates, balanced outs should be required just to take advantage of the resolution that's available.


Yes.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:
Balanced outputs are nice to have, but not that much of a issue. Consumer output level (-10dB) instead of pro audio output level (+4dB) is far more bothersome. Everytime I play the G2 at a venue, the techs always ask me to give them a hotter signal. "Uh sorry, I can't. I'm cranked to the max. Embarassed" Talk about embarrassment... Rolling Eyes


Those engineers should have been able to handle this. This is about gain structure. That being said, there is no sane reason for not having pro audio levels on modern synths.

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T7



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fozzie wrote:
tim wrote:
-10 dBV !? Shocked ...no wonder everybody is complaining about the low output level of the G2! Gee... 10dBV is consumer equipment output level. Confused Why didn't they go along and use RCA jack connections too, while they were at it? Rolling Eyes


AFAIK that's standard on most synths. With +4 it's easy to overload normal line inputs.


Out of my 3 synths and 2 samplers the G2 is the only one with consumer -10 dbv outputs.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
I tend to think that with 24 bit audio, and 96kHz sample rates, balanced outs should be required just to take advantage of the resolution that's available.


I don't think going 24/96 was nesicarily a soundquality move; I think it's a marketing move. 24/96 is easy to sell while the advantages of ballanced outputs are harder to promote since most people can't be bothered to do the math.

It's similar to a few years ago when consumers picked up on the whole "more MHz is better" idea with computer chips. This promptly and predictably led to cpu manifacturers (particularly Intell) going for chips with very high clock-speeds that got relatively little work done per cycle.

Everybody can easily sidestep this whole phenomenon by simply seeing how a product performs in practice. In the end that's the only way because so many things that are hard to quantify and all interactions effect it. Ballanced outputs matter, so does DAC speed and bit-depth but the quality of the clock that's used as well as the quality of other components, the grounding structure, the implementation of the anit-aliassing filter.... Stuff like that doesn't realy show in the spec-sheets. I happen to be very fond of the sound of my S550 but the specs are terrible...

As for engineers; They shouldn't be running a set of unballance cables to the back of the house anyway. Using a sub-mixer on the stage is a option as is going DI. Everything after that is their problem. In situations like that I don't think the unballance doutputs will be the soundquality bottleneck, the gainstructure will likely have far more effect. If that's a regular problem and embaracement you could considder a nice colouring pre-amp. In my own experience many mid-level venues actually expect to be getting a stereo unbalanced feed in jack plugs. Me and a friend both tend to bring one of those small portable Sprits when unsure about the presence of local mixers and I have been forced to start taking apair of adapter plugs along to translate those XLR outs to jack (???!!!). Delivering audio in unballanced feeds is perfectly normal, they should be able to deal with that and that shouldn't mean running 50 or more meters of unballanced cables because that's asking for trouble.

Edit; that being said Clavia outputs ARE very low. Even the headphone outputs are way underpowered. It's next to impossible to pre-monitor on those in noisy circumstances, even with a DJ type headphone optimised for that sort of thing.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
jksuperstar wrote:
I tend to think that with 24 bit audio, and 96kHz sample rates, balanced outs should be required just to take advantage of the resolution that's available.


I don't think going 24/96 was nesicarily a soundquality move; I think it's a marketing move.


If they had decided to be serious about this, they had been stressing the duo and quad speeds of 44.1khz CD Audio standard instead. However, it kinda "feels" better for the marketing people to sell 24/192 gear to novices as well as unbalanced rack devices and tube warming stuff with cute yellow leds.

Another issue is that a whole lot of consumer/prosumer gear is pretty incompatible with standard pro studio gear. As we already know, the old +4 dBu standard pro audio voltage reference level is equal to 1.23 Vrms.. but into a 600 ohm load. Additionally as pro gears goes it is reasonable to expect +4dBu with a 20dB headroom (i.e. +24dBu clip level).

Even though we are seeing a lot of "improved" audio interfaces and such, the analoge side of the project studio is a mess.

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tombola



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Smile

So nice when we can all agree on something.

I thought this was going to descend into the great 'how loud are the outputs?' war of 2006...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tombola wrote:
I thought this was going to descend into the great 'how loud are the outputs?' war of 2006...

Now that you mention it, they aren't that hot, are they Twisted Evil Wink ?

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