electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » NM Classic (NM1 or G1)
Change the Phase of a Saw Oscillator
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 1 [15 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
mrpv



Joined: Aug 06, 2007
Posts: 8
Location: montreal

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Change the Phase of a Saw Oscillator Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, I hope somebody will be able to help me. I'm trying to reproduce a sound I use on another synth. The key element about my patch is that there is two Saw oscillators with one slightly phased (dephased?) from the other. Is there a way to do that with the Modular?

I have OscA set to Saw and a Slave Saw Osc. I want the OscA to have a different phase.

Also, how could I change the side of the saw. ie. instead of /|, I want |\. Wink

Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Change the Phase of a Saw Oscillator Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mrpv wrote:

I have OscA set to Saw and a Slave Saw Osc. I want the OscA to have a different phase.


Modulate the slave's pitch *very* slightly using a slow LFO. Striclty speaking not what you asked for but this is what I think you want. Don't apply this modulation to the master as the slave will follow the master and it's the difference that we're after.

Quote:

Also, how could I change the side of the saw. ie. instead of /|, I want |\. Wink


use the level-shifter/inverter (I think that's what it's called?) it would also work to amplify it by -64 units as that comes down to the same thing.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mystic Loon



Joined: Jan 13, 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Germany
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Slave pitch modulation only
Subject description: How is it done
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear Kassen!
I'm not really an expert on the G1, so forgive the question:
how do you modulate a slave-oscillator's pitch? There is no modulation input there; is it done via AM or FM? Please let me know!
Thank you in advance.
Mystic Loon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20567
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FM = Frequency Modulation, frequency and pitch both refer to the same thing, how high or how low the note is. Frequency Modulation however is used for a linear modulation and Pitch Modulation for exponential modulation of the pitch.

AM = Amplitude Modulation and amplitude refers to how loud the tone is.

FM can be used for vibrato and AM for tremolo. Pitch modulation is normally used to track a keyboard.

A slow vibrato, as suggested by Kassen will make the frequencies of the two oscillators dance around each other and in doing so the phase relation between the two oscillators constantly shifts. This makes the tone come alive a bit.

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2575
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 608

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think mrpv may want a variable but fixed phase relationship between the two oscillators. Does adding a constant level before the slave sync input work on the NM1?

Except when used for modulation, there is no audible difference between a positive and negative sawtooth, they just look different.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20567
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
IDoes adding a constant level before the slave sync input work on the NM1?


Yes, given a suitable input waveform and polarity ... an inverter is probably needed ... IIRC the saw ramps down and PWM modulates the time of the down going edge.

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mrpv



Joined: Aug 06, 2007
Posts: 8
Location: montreal

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wonder, if someone could actually "show" me how to do it, because I'm not sure I get what I am supposed to do exactly.

I tried to add a Constant to the slave signal but I think it just changed the pitch. Adding a Constant to the FMA moduator on the slave does something, but I'm not sure it change the phase.

At this point, it's more like I want to understand how to do it, more than I believe that this is what I absolutely need to create my patch.

Thanks...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20567
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can't patch now but maybe have a look at the Oscillator Synchronization and the Frequency Modulation workshops at http://www.clavia.se/nordmodular/Modularzone/index.html - this touches the same subject at least.
_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tusker



Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 110
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I assume that if I add a constant to a saw wave and waveshape it, I have actually shifted it's phase. Would this be a correct assumption? If not is there a technique which involves adding a constant that could do the phase shift?

I too would like to be able to control phase shift, without necessarily using pitch detune to do it.

Jerry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mrpv



Joined: Aug 06, 2007
Posts: 8
Location: montreal

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember in a MAX/MSP homework, I was using a Sqr Osc that I could change the phase and by adding or multiplying another wave to it, I was able to creat a Saw. But that was a while ago and I don't remember how that work... and don't have access to max/msp anymore.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
davep



Joined: Jul 05, 2004
Posts: 467
Location: Oakland, CA
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 73

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, you can do modulatable osc phase on the NM1. This topic came up a while ago and I don't remember who figured it out, but it works great. Here's how:

1. Use a regular "up" sawtooth as a sync master osc.

2. Ordinarily, you would connect this directly to the SYNC input of the sync slave osc and the slave osc would reset every time the master saw crosses from negative to positive, in the middle of it's upward ramp.

3. Instead of patching it directly to the slave, connect it to an audio mixer input and connect the mixer output to the slave osc's sync input.

4. Now connect a Constant module or an LFO or any other bipolar control signal to a second input of the mixer. Turn up the level, but always keep it at least a little lower than the level of the audio sawtooth osc.

5. This control signal will now 'bias' the audio sawtooth master osc waveform positive and negative, which changes to point at which it crosses the zero line (negative bias causes the sawtooth to cross zero near the end of it's ramp, positive bias causes it to cross zero near the start of it's ramp).

6. This will now alter the phase relationship of the slave osc to the master osc. And the cool thing is, sync sweep effects still work, but you now also have phase mod / detuning effects. You can build huge aggressive pads by added a couple more slave oscs with separate sync sweeps and separate phase mod mixer + LFO circuits.

_________________
Dave Peck
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Colin OOOD



Joined: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's fantastic Dave, thanks so much.

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question but it's late, I'm jetlagged so sod it here goes... can this technique also be used to create an oscillator whose start phase can be varied and reset by a note-on event? ie. an oscillator which always starts at eg. 94' when a key is pressed?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
davep



Joined: Jul 05, 2004
Posts: 467
Location: Oakland, CA
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 73

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Colin OOOD wrote:
That's fantastic Dave, thanks so much.

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question but it's late, I'm jetlagged so sod it here goes... can this technique also be used to create an oscillator whose start phase can be varied and reset by a note-on event? ie. an oscillator which always starts at eg. 94' when a key is pressed?


Hmm. Now THAT's trickier.... So you would want the sync slave osc to be forced to start (reset) at a specific point in it's wave, other than the normal reset start point, when it gets an instantaneous reset signal of some kind..... I'm not sure there's a way to do that. You would have to alter the sync behavior of the slave osc itself, not just modify the signal from the master osc being used as the sync master.

But I'm not sure why you would need to do this. The phase mod trick described in the posts above is only useful because it provides a way to change the phase relation of the master & slave osc over time, like slowly shifting the phase with an LFO, creating detuning effects along with sync sweep. Would forcing the slave osc to reset at a specific static point in it's wave (instead of the normal start point) provide a useful effect?

_________________
Dave Peck
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Colin OOOD



Joined: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

davep wrote:
Colin OOOD wrote:
That's fantastic Dave, thanks so much.

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question but it's late, I'm jetlagged so sod it here goes... can this technique also be used to create an oscillator whose start phase can be varied and reset by a note-on event? ie. an oscillator which always starts at eg. 94' when a key is pressed?


Hmm. Now THAT's trickier.... So you would want the sync slave osc to be forced to start (reset) at a specific point in it's wave, other than the normal reset start point, when it gets an instantaneous reset signal of some kind..... I'm not sure there's a way to do that. You would have to alter the sync behavior of the slave osc itself, not just modify the signal from the master osc being used as the sync master.

But I'm not sure why you would need to do this. The phase mod trick described in the posts above is only useful because it provides a way to change the phase relation of the master & slave osc over time, like slowly shifting the phase with an LFO, creating detuning effects along with sync sweep. Would forcing the slave osc to reset at a specific static point in it's wave (instead of the normal start point) provide a useful effect?


I think I was a bit unclear Smile I'm not talking about a sync slave oscillator, I'd just like a keyboard-resettable oscillator with variable start phase as is available on many other synths, both hardware and software. Perhaps it's not possible on the NM1, and I should stick to the VSTis I have that give me this facility, but I use this it a lot when making basslines and it would be great to get the Nord's chunkiness on the case Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2575
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 608

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Colin OOOD wrote:
I'd just like a keyboard-resettable oscillator with variable start phase


Hi Colin

I don't have a NM1 but this G2 patch should be translatable and run in the G2 demo.

It uses a compare value module, mixer and level converter to produce a copy of the input saw, shifted to any phase.

Hope it helps.


variStartPhase.pch2
 Description:
phase shift saw building block

Download
 Filename:  variStartPhase.pch2
 Filesize:  1.18 KB
 Downloaded:  787 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 1 [15 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » NM Classic (NM1 or G1)
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use