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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » G2 FAQ
Free running Oscillators
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Check Mate



Joined: Sep 13, 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:39 am    Post subject:  Free running Oscillators Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi guys,

I'm quite new to the G2 community and since I have more time now to play with the synth also the number of questions increases.

I'm building a simple mono Synth with 2 Oscillators at the moment.
I compared the sound to my Oberheim analog synth which has DCO's and I noticed that the Oscillators on the Oberheim have the "typical" phasing/flanging effect even when they are not detuned.
On the G2 both Oscillators are always perfect in tune and you only get the "analog style flanging" by detuning the Oscillators.

My question is if there is a away to achieve this effect with the G2 without detuning the Oscillators or better to let the Oscillators run free?

Sorry for this stupid question but there are some modules I still haven't understood.

Cheers,

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jksuperstar



Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not sure what you mean by free running: they are always running, and on some of them you can control the phase, so they won't be in sync.

They are digital, and therefore exactly reproducible every time you reload a patch. As such, two oscillators that are set to a specific frequency will both always be at that exact frequency, and therefore not have any low frequency phasing as an analog osc/dco has. If you don't want to detune them, there have been several techniques posted around this forum for making them sound more "analog", by adding a somewhat random/lfo pattern into the pitch control input at very low amplitude: That emulates the fact that true analog oscillators are never in perfect pitch, and can waver from the requested frequency.
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Check Mate



Joined: Sep 13, 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I think Sync is propably the term that describes best what I mean. So everytime I press a Key it sounds as if they are perfectly in Sync (always).
With "free running" I meant that the "starting point" of i.e. a saw is different everytime I press a key.
It seems to me as if the "starting point" is always the same even between 2 Oscillators.

I thought the reason of the "flanging" in analog synths is because 2 Oscillators always start at different "points" of the waveform.
The question would be can you achieve that without altering the pitch or detuning the OSCs?
I'm not sure if my point is clear though.

I've alreday looked at some Building Blocks etc. that improve the Sound or change the Pitch every time a key is pressed but that is not quite what I meant.
But maybe that is the only way to achieve the desired effect.
I'm just curious though.

Cheers,

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
They are digital, and therefore exactly reproducible every time you reload a patch.


Except that the startup phase seems to change everytime you load or recompile the patch, but once the phase is set it will not change anymore indeed.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Free running Oscillators Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Check Mate wrote:
My question is if there is a away to achieve this effect with the G2 without detuning the Oscillators or better to let the Oscillators run free?


The effect is caused by the oscillators being out of tune slightly. On an analog synth this will always be the case but on the G2 you'll have to program it in. It needs just a tiny bit of detuning, and to get it right the detuning should slowly vary over time, or with each keypress.

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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[edit] - posted at the same time as Jan did, so this just reinforces his statement.

The flanging is typically caused by two oscillators not being the exact same frequency. If they are simply out of phase but still the exact same frequency, then you will typically hear this as a loss of amplitude when they are mixed.

Here's a good explanation:
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/superposition/superposition.html

You hear the last example on that page in your Oberheim (Two sine waves with different frequencies: Beats). Recreating that in the G2 I think is what you are after.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Check Mate wrote:
I thought the reason of the "flanging" in analog synths is because 2 Oscillators always start at different "points" of the waveform.


No, any fixed pahase relation will result in a difference in amplitude only, it will not result in any beating to be heard - for that the phase relation will have to change by slightly changing the frequency of at least on of the oscillators - this can both be done through frequency modulation or phase modulation, both change the momentary frequency.

[edit: and yet another same time posting Laughing ]

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Check Mate



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you guys for expanding my knowledge.
I'll continue patching now!

I love the G2 BTW

Cheers,

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Check Mate wrote:
I'll continue patching now!


Have fun, and post some!

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Jan
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Check Mate



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanx Jan, I will!
I've been reading secretly for quite some time here.
This is a nice community here and I like the positive vibe in the Forum thumright

Cheers,

Enrico

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davep



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a handy little idea for emulating analog oscillator pitch drift like you hear in an old analog poly synth. You use a Clocked Random module (triggered by the keyboard gate) to generate a new random level with every new note. You connect this to the pitch input of only one of the two oscillators. This will give you a different amount of detuning on every note, and it sounds like a poly synth with different amounts of pitch drift on each voice card. I added a one-channel-mixer so you can set how much detuning effect you want. Enjoy!


DetuneExample.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  DetuneExample.pch2
 Filesize:  1.41 KB
 Downloaded:  591 Time(s)


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Check Mate



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's very nice!
Thank you mate Very Happy

Cheers,

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Antimon



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

No, any fixed pahase relation will result in a difference in amplitude only,


For sines, yes, but e.g. two sawtooths that are out of phase will have different timbres depending on the phase difference (that's my experience anyway).

Also, shouldn't DCOs stay in tune and not drift?

To just get a random phase difference on every note I would route a slow LFO (possibly randomized) through an inverted envelope into the pitch input of one or more oscillators, so that it runs free until a key is pressed. Then the phase freezes in a random position in relation to other oscillators, but the pitch is identical. No flanging effect, but rather a random timbre effect (unless it's sines).

/Stefan

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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

simple osc drift


simple osc drift.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  simple osc drift.pch2
 Filesize:  1.1 KB
 Downloaded:  626 Time(s)


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Check Mate



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you! I'`m learning a lot these days.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

davep wrote:
Here's a handy little idea for emulating analog oscillator pitch drift like you hear in an old analog poly synth. You use a Clocked Random module (triggered by the keyboard gate) to generate a new random level with every new note. You connect this to the pitch input of only one of the two oscillators. This will give you a different amount of detuning on every note, and it sounds like a poly synth with different amounts of pitch drift on each voice card. I added a one-channel-mixer so you can set how much detuning effect you want. Enjoy!


Dave-I was just thinking about the Chroma patch you did for the NM1- is that similar to this one?

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