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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Haible Vokoder?
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Haible Vokoder? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Juergen,

I know that you've built a few vocoders over the years. Do you think you would ever design one for us?

Please? Pretty please?

(c;

Romeo
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:11 am    Post subject: Re: Haible Vokoder? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

vtl5c3 wrote:
Hi Juergen,

I know that you've built a few vocoders over the years. Do you think you would ever design one for us?

Please? Pretty please?

(c;

Romeo


Maybe. Smile

My motivation to buy the Rimu PCB layout software originally was to build a vocoder, after all.

The big question - especially with a big, expensive PCB involved! - is, how big is the market for such a thing?
Well, I might distribute it over several PCBs.

My thoughts for a vocoder, if I ever make another one, go like this:

A reasonable number of bands.
Not too few - for good speech quality.
Not too many - I want the "analogue vocoder sound" - not something close to a digital solution. 14 ... 16 seem about right.

Lowest noise filters. I'd use the same technology as in the String Filter.

High dynamic range envelope detectors, with VC slew and freeze function.

A filtered (!) silence bridging like the Sennheiser. IMO, this makes all the difference in a lot of applications.

An interface for cross-patching and digital storage.

Cross ptaching: Everybody can choose his or her favorite means of cross-patching: a matrix, a patchbay, you name it. Or simply omit it.

Digital storage: Stora a "snapshot" of VCA settings. You can use the analogue freeze function for a coule of minutes, sure - but after that, you'd better store the parameters away in a RAM ...

JH.

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There was once a vocoder design idea in ETI that was entirely made from CMOS chips (for the filter bands)- making it incredibly cheap to build (like Jurgen quite rightly said- vocoders ain't cheap!)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
There was once a vocoder design idea in ETI that was entirely made from CMOS chips (for the filter bands)- making it incredibly cheap to build (like Jurgen quite rightly said- vocoders ain't cheap!)


Without knowing that particular ETI design idea, I think it's save to say that it's never the active components that make a vocoder expensive. It's the passives: either tightly spec'ed or selected capacitors, or trimpots. And the front panel controls, the printed circuit board, enclosure, patch matrix - that kind of stuff.

JH.

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh yes I know Smile

The CMOS design hardly had any passives btw- what were there were just for tuning and levels if my memory serves me right- it was a long, long time ago! Wink Very Happy

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ringer



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think a cross-pollination of the Sennheiser and the EMS 5000 would be a good starting point.

cheers
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi JH,

Sorry, I hope that didn't totally blindside you! Very Happy

I think 16 bands would be great. Crosspatching too. I think that creates a lot of possibilities. What does the 'Freeze' option do? Can you do choir type pads or something?

As far as market goes, I bet you'd get enough takers if you put the word out. I mean, did you ever think you'd sell as many frequency shifter boards as you did?
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

vtl5c3 wrote:
Hi JH,

Sorry, I hope that didn't totally blindside you! Very Happy

I think 16 bands would be great. Crosspatching too. I think that creates a lot of possibilities. What does the 'Freeze' option do? Can you do choir type pads or something?

As far as market goes, I bet you'd get enough takers if you put the word out. I mean, did you ever think you'd sell as many frequency shifter boards as you did?


Number of FS-1A boards came as a surprise, because I did my best to frighten as many of you away as possible, repeating all over what a difficult project it is, with capacitor measuring and resistor selecting, and the need of a scope and all. Smile
But then again, these two PCBs were rather cheap, cmpared to the price tag of a Moog/Bode Frequency shifter.

For a vocoder, it would be the other way round: Not that hard to build, but rather expensive, simply because it's so huge.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JH, if you don't want a heart attack (!), I've got a number of old Elektor magazines, and I've also got the full Vocoder set too (I only think there were 2. 3 if you count the voiced/ unvoiced detector.

The PCB layouts are all there Smile

Shall I dig these out for anyone?

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
JH, if you don't want a heart attack (!), I've got a number of old Elektor magazines, and I've also got the full Vocoder set too (I only think there were 2. 3 if you count the voiced/ unvoiced detector.

The PCB layouts are all there Smile

Shall I dig these out for anyone?


It's been a while since I've seen these, but I definitely have them, or used to have them.

I don't rememeber the details, but it didn't seem that attractive at the time.
Especially when compared to the Elrad/ETI/Powertran vocoder which has been published around the same time. But I don't want to dismiss anything without being able to say why. Maybe if I see it again, I can tell more.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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dar303



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe you should do it entierly in SMD to keep the size down?
That would scare away a few but it's really not that hard to solder without any special tools if you keep the components at a reasonable size (0805 or 1206).
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Peake



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An SMD vocoder would be a thing of beauty.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You should base your desing on the EMS ones.
These are the greatest vocoders i know.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dar303 wrote:
Maybe you should do it entierly in SMD to keep the size down?
That would scare away a few but it's really not that hard to solder without any special tools if you keep the components at a reasonable size (0805 or 1206).


I'm not so sure about SMD.
Vertically mounted thru-hole resistors don't take more space than SMD resistors. Good quality capacitors don't come in SMD for large values - and small values means larger resistor values = more noise.
(Not speaking about electronics in general - just filter banks, vocoders, and stuff.)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
You should base your desing on the EMS ones.
These are the greatest vocoders i know.


I've reverse-enigineered the EMS 2000 / 3000 last year, starting with schematics without component values, and a lot of pictures from the inside of a 3000 - yes, translating (and often guessing) every single colour code. Smile

But I won't make any direct EMS copy for the same reason why I don't sell any VCS3 clone circuits etc.
But there is more.
I'm pretty convinced that Tim Orr didn't just make a scaled-down version for ETI after he designed the EMS vocoder (in part he did, most obviously), but that he also improoved some aspects of his earlier design.
And then there is Sennheiser, of course.
Plus, I have some additional ideas of my own. Smile

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps the only worthwhile circuits published by ETI were designed by Tim Orr. As ETI was legendary for it's minimal payments to designers, he must have had some clout with the rag through the advertising account!!
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Senheiser isn't that good imho.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
The Senheiser isn't that good imho.


Hmm ... it's a tad noisy, and it doesn't have a slew / freeze function.

But its speech intelligibility and silence bridging blow the small EMS vocoders away. (Don't know about the 5000, though.)

It's fascinating how the Sennheiser makes a lingering sound suddenly start to "speak" without a noticeable crossfade - that's due to its multifilter, I think.

JH.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the ems 3000 vocoder is the coolest sounding.
To me it sounded cooler as the Senheiser somehow.
Even cooler as the Moog/Bode vocoder to.

But perhaps i just got a bad taste.
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
I think the ems 3000 vocoder is the coolest sounding.
To me it sounded cooler as the Senheiser somehow.
Even cooler as the Moog/Bode vocoder to.

But perhaps i just got a bad taste.


I certainly love the EMS Vocoder on Oldfield's QE2 and Five Miles Out, and ABBA's "Me And I" !

And I think I hear a Sennheiser on Schulze's Audentity.

Smile

JH.

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robovoice



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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject:  Vocoders
Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on...
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jhaible wrote:
I certainly love the EMS Vocoder on Oldfield's QE2 and Five Miles Out, and ABBA's "Me And I" !

And I think I hear a Sennheiser on Schulze's Audentity.

Smile

JH.

Did "Five Miles Out" also use an EMS Vocoder? Because that's a Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI, the same as the "Prologue" intro to "Twilight" from the "Time" LP by ELO. On the "Out of the Blue" and "Discovery" LPs they used an EMS Vocoder 2000W MkI. Someone named "Micke" (not sure if he's here) says they used either of the Bode/Moog Vocoder's, but most likely the Bode because of the date (I remember watching a concert from Birmingham on PBS in which they used a Korg VC-10 Keyboard/Vocoder). Bode came-out a year or two before the Moog. Idk but I think 7702 stands for February 1977. Abba's last song with video was a vocoder song, drtn. The Sennheiser Vocoder VSM201 was used by Kraftwerk (they used most of "the golden age of analog hardware vocoders", but mostly the VSM201), Herbie Hancock, The Rockets, and Telex for example. Kraftwerk had two prototype vocoders that I know of, one built by Sennheiser (before the VSM201), and the other built by R. Barth KG (before the Musicoder). One of them was on eBay a year ago or so, but nsw.

I believe I hear the EMS Vocoder-System 3000 used in "Never Say Never Again". I also believe it to be among the EMS 1000, 2000, or 5000 (but not 3000 since it wasn't out then) and NOT the Sennheiser Vocoder VSM201 that was used as the voices for the Cylon Centurions from the original-series of "Battlestar Galactica"!! And Soundwave of "The Transformers" is one of the two Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus models.
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: Vocoders
Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on...
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robovoice wrote:

Did "Five Miles Out" also use an EMS Vocoder? Because that's a Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI,


I'm not entirely sure about the the EMS on Five Miles Out.
But I think I remember the EMS 2000 from the "Live at Montreux 1981" DVD.
I guess I'll better double check this - so I have an excuse for watching this outstanding concert again. Smile
http://www.amazon.de/Mike-Oldfield-Live-Montreux-1981/dp/B000EU1KTG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1211531324&sr=1-3
Also, EMS Rehberg does some advertizing with Oldfield:
http://www.emsrehberg.de/_______v_i_p___s/_______v_i_p___s.html


Quote:

Kraftwerk had two prototype vocoders that I know of, one built by Sennheiser (before the VSM201), and the other built by R. Barth KG (before the Musicoder). One of them was on eBay a year ago or so, but nsw.


I saw that Barth vocoder on ebay. Would be interesting to see the schemos of this.

JH.

Now playing: Tori Amos, American Doll Posse

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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robovoice



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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:13 am    Post subject:  Re: Vocoders
Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on...
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jhaible wrote:
robovoice wrote:

Did "Five Miles Out" also use an EMS Vocoder? Because that's a Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI,


I'm not entirely sure about the the EMS on Five Miles Out.
But I think I remember the EMS 2000 from the "Live at Montreux 1981" DVD.
I guess I'll better double check this - so I have an excuse for watching this outstanding concert again. Smile
http://www.amazon.de/Mike-Oldfield-Live-Montreux-1981/dp/B000EU1KTG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1211531324&sr=1-3
Also, EMS Rehberg does some advertizing with Oldfield:
http://www.emsrehberg.de/_______v_i_p___s/_______v_i_p___s.html


Quote:

Kraftwerk had two prototype vocoders that I know of, one built by Sennheiser (before the VSM201), and the other built by R. Barth KG (before the Musicoder). One of them was on eBay a year ago or so, but nsw.


I saw that Barth vocoder on ebay. Would be interesting to see the schemos of this.

JH.

Now playing: Tori Amos, American Doll Posse

So that was the Barth Kraftwerk Vocoder on eBay a year or so ago, not the Sennheiser Kraftwerk Vocoder? I wonder if that was legit or a scam.
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: Vocoders
Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on...
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robovoice wrote:

So that was the Barth Kraftwerk Vocoder on eBay a year or so ago, not the Sennheiser Kraftwerk Vocoder? I wonder if that was legit or a scam.


I don't know - didn't know that only Kraftwerk had a Barth vocoder, either.
Actually, not exactly being the biggest Kraftwerk fan, I didn't know of any Barth vocoder until someone pointed me at that auction.

JH.

Now on the record player - guess what? - Oldfield, Five Miles Out. Smile

_________________
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:54 am    Post subject:  Re: Vocoders
Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on...
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jhaible wrote:
robovoice wrote:

So that was the Barth Kraftwerk Vocoder on eBay a year or so ago, not the Sennheiser Kraftwerk Vocoder? I wonder if that was legit or a scam.


I don't know - didn't know that only Kraftwerk had a Barth vocoder, either.
Actually, not exactly being the biggest Kraftwerk fan, I didn't know of any Barth vocoder until someone pointed me at that auction.

JH.

Now on the record player - guess what? - Oldfield, Five Miles Out. Smile

Does he use both an EMS and the Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI, or just the VP-330+ MkI?
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