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Genre confusion
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LoKi



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Genre confusion Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello! Very Happy

First off: A big thankyou to the conceivers of this community, and it's contributing members who have (unknowingly) helped me in the past!

too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee

But I am a little confused. This community is called electro-music.com - and this makes me think of artists such as:

Drexciya
Autechre
Bolz Bolz
Dopplereffekt
Japanese Telecom
Bangkok Impact
Legowelt
Zombie Nation
FPU
etc.

Yet much of the music I find (linked to) here seems much more experimental to me. Lots of ambient, glitch and noise tracks.
Nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't fit my idea of electro.

Is my view of electro too narrow? Or is this community geared toward electronic artists in general?

To be clear, I have to say that this community comes accross as one of the most proffessional producer boards I have found - while remaining accessible to those who don't have in excess of 2km of cables in their studio (and the technical know-how that tends to accompany them). So no offence is intended by the above! Very Happy

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Loki! Welcome! Very Happy

I guess the electro term can be a bit confusing. The way I read this, the electro-music term allows for ventures into both electronic and electroacoustic music.

Your list of artists is pretty nice, but you can just as well add

Fernand Legér
Bebe Barron
Les Structures Sonores
Mother Mallard´s Portable Masterpiece Company
Delia Derbyshire
Howard Moscovitz
Tim Blake
Lustmord

and many many more.

Some will define EM ( as in electronic music ) to only refer to artists like Tangerine Dream, J.M. Jarre, Klaus Schulze, Kitaro and Vangelis.

I know some still think that electro is short for electro-pop and if you disagree, then the ghost of Gary Numan will kick you ass for sure.

I am not sure I can say anything sensible about these terms really. One thing is sure though, genres do not in any way say anything about "quality" or content.

In a way, electro-music.com is a community that both defines, documents and reinvents the roots of electronic music. ..And I hope you will like it here!

Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Genre confusion Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LoKi wrote:
This community is called electro-music.com - and this makes me think of artists such as:........

Hi LoKi
didn'y you notice what's written after electro-music.com Question
Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic and electronic music
That says it all Exclamation Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We really need to define electro-music, but so far we've done pretty good winging it. Electro means different things to different people. To some it is a very specific genre to dance/techno style stuff done in Germany. Others identify with the term electro clash. To me electro is short for electronic. We can argue about what electro means, but electo-music is not electo music.

Electro-music itself is a term that, as far as I can tell, was never used before this web site started. The name electro-music.com as picked partly because other names, like electronicmusic.com were already taken when I decided to register a domain name over 10 years ago. This is as close as I could get, but I liked the ring of it nonetheless. The term is now a trademark of electro-music.com, not to capitalize or cash in on it, but to protect it. So, it should be used with a [tm] symbol, like electro-music[tm].

In the last two years, the electro-music.com has focused on bringing together musicians from different backgrounds and styles. The common denominator is a love of electronic sounds and the creation of music primarilly for the joy of creation itself. We don't like the rigid ultraclassification that has evolved lately. All the genres are too confining and restrictive. Electro-music is not a style, but a musical movement. Not a genre, but an attitude. Not a product, but a communitey.

I think after electro-music 2005[TM] we'll have a much better idea about this.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Trivia: My own nick Elektro80 ( started to use that one around 77/78 or something like that ) was based on mixing electronic with electroacoustic .. and yes.. no matter what.. "Elektro" would cover it..
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: Genre confusion Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LoKi wrote:

But I am a little confused. This community is called electro-music.com - and this makes me think of artists such as:
<snip>
Bangkok Impact


Sami doesn´t talk on fora as much as he used to anymore. You´ll have to make do with me. Beware that I realy like glitch and noise and ambient.


Quote:

Legowelt


He´s here too as is mr. Orgue Electronique. He doesn´t realy like glitch but he secretly plays noise and ambient at times.

Quote:

Yet much of the music I find (linked to) here seems much more experimental to me. Lots of ambient, glitch and noise tracks.
Nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't fit my idea of electro.


Oh. Erm. Yeah.

As a peacemaking gesture; I happen to know there´ll be two new Bangkok Impact 12"´s out soon, those´ll be cut tomorow and so there should be test pressings in a short while and real ones in, erm, some more time. Well, there´ll be straightforward electro/disco tracks on there that you´ll like. There´ll also be a remix by that Kassen guy which is *both* straightforward electro *and* glitch/experimental/noise *at the same time* with lots of dub influences too. Be good now.

;¬)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Loki, it seems you have hit the right place. Very Happy
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LoKi



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sweeeeet! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, and don´t look now, but I think Autechre also likes glitch and noise and experimental weird stuff.

:¬p

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i may be alone on this, but i think all/any music made using a computer or digital thingies is 'electro'

even 'new country' is pretty electro when you consider all that mutt lange and his team of producer's is doing to shania twain..

digitally, in the studio i mean... Very Happy


or in my case, i use electronics in my rock n roll/new wave music..which makes it 'electro-rock' in my mind

so yeah, this term 'electro' is pretty universal and ony recently did people fix that term to a kind of new-kraftwerk vibe that cam out in the 90's....



thing is, i can't agree that this site is the first time i have seen a reference to 'electro-music'..i have seen/heard it many many times over the last 15 years

but hey, you guys are the first to TRADEMARK it..whew..that is heavy stuff

electro-musik is still open for anyone who want to register that trademark Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paul e. wrote:
so yeah, this term 'electro' is pretty universal and ony recently did people fix that term to a kind of new-kraftwerk vibe that cam out in the 90's....


Yes, but only if we take "recent" on the kind of broader cultural scale where "modern" refers to "after 1850" and good cases can be made for Chopin being modern too.

;¬)
Realy, it´s been around for ages.

I had a quick look around the G.D. article archive and chanced upon this article from The Face from 1984 that you might want to read.
http://www.globaldarkness.com/articles/beatbox_bites_back.htm

Electro is a style and a aesthetic, not nesicarily a way of generating sound. You can play electro beats on a accoustic drumkit. Some do.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I hope I am not the only one who bought the Material records... Shocked
First they were Daevid Allen´s backing band.. and then... Excellent stuff.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Electro-music itself is a term that, as far as I can tell, was never used before this web site started. The name electro-music.com as picked partly because other names, like electronicmusic.com were already taken when I decided to register a domain name over 10 years ago. This is as close as I could get, but I liked the ring of it nonetheless. The term is now a trademark of electro-music.com, not to capitalize or cash in on it, but to protect it. So, it should be used with a [tm] symbol, like electro-music[tm].


Am I the only one who thinks this a Bad Thing(tm) you are even alowed to do this in the u.s. much less even contemplate doing it?

If I understand it correctly you hold that all sorts of artists, most of whom don´t know of your existance, fall below the umbrella of "electro_music" yet only you are alowed to use the word? Aren´t you requirered to defend trademarks to avoid them falling into the public domain? Do you sincerely believe that´ll hold up in any court but a U.S. one?

The way in which modern western culture deals with copyright is currently at a point that´ll have far reaching concequences for how our civilisation will change over the next centuries and trademarking words which you proceed to promote as names for musical styles is NOT helping anybody.

I´m sorry Howard, I have a lot of respect for many of the things that you are doing but this one isn´t one of them.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I cannot quite see this being a problem. I think we have discussed this in detail in other threads and it makes sense because we must have some way to protect at least one important element of the site and community identity. Now that we have the events too, this makes even more sense.

Let us say there is a guy out there who digs what you are doing. He then suddenly decides to do the obvious. He becomes you. He takes on the Kassen ID and stalks the net trying to be Kassen. You get the idea?

OK, you could kick his ass and laws do protect you against identity theft. Trademarking is however the way to protect names and concepts when it comes to projects like electro-music.com.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Let us say there is a guy out there who digs what you are doing. He then suddenly decides to do the obvious. He becomes you. He takes on the Kassen ID and stalks the net trying to be Kassen. You get the idea?


I decided to use my own name since nobody would be able to sue me for using it. It´s a sad thing that even if I would´ve been able to think up a "new" nom-de-plume anybody could sue me for using it. Nobody can sue me for being called "Kassen", the sole blame for this lies with my parents who can´t be sued either since they are dead.

I would´ve prefered to have a original name of my own choosing since this would indicate me personally and also have expressive value but I can´t afford to risk court cases over it from people who think it´s a good idea to trademark words so I´m stuck with my given name. This was a intentional choice after reading up on trademarks, I still have a poster on my door from back when I used a artists name.

The finacial ruin that might come with this scares me much more then identity theft does, it´s only the internet; it´s only letters on a schreen. I noticed you aren´t posting hashes of your posts and are talking to me without having a way to verify my own identity. Perhaps this identity theft already took place.

Quote:
OK, you could kick his ass and laws do protect you against identity theft. Trademarking is however the way to protect names and concepts when it comes to projects like electro-music.com.


No, I couldn´t. I don´t think the Netherlands have laws against people using somebody else´s handle on fora. I also believe Dutch courts have some realy weird issues aboutr admitting digital evidence (and with good reason) I realy doubt I could find people who did so and I dislike fighting. I´m not going to hospitalise people over online posts.

My case is that if electro_music is something, a concept, you feel strongly about you shouldn´t "protect" it, you should promote it and actually *encourage* people to use it themselves.

The problem is also that I realy do think that you are required to protect your trademarks. This means you´ll HAVE to sue or threaten to sue people who use it, even if you like them, in order to be alowed to stop people you don´t like. As soon as you do this word will get out which will do the scene and the artists affiliated with this site more harm then good. This means that if you indeed suceed in promoting this concept then you´ll either have to sue the people you just converted or the term will go into the public domain (where it should´ve been anyway). I´m not a lawyer and am not 100% sure about the details but this bothers me.

I would realy like to hear Mosc´s reasoning on this. I´d also like to know wether this is the position on trademarks of the artists affiliated with this site. I´d also like answers to the following questions;

Should I -in your opinion- be able to trade-mark genre words like; "Clasical-music", "jazz-music", "Rock-music" or "Chamber-music"? If not, where is the difference? If so how much do you think would be reasonable for me to ask in payment from anybody who inadvertedly used such words?

I was previously unaware "electro_music" was a trademark and thus protected by law. If I had not been told just now I might´ve inadvertedly used it, offending U.S. law which might land me in prison next time I´d visit that country. What steps are the owners taking themselves to verify words they use are not already "claimed" by some corporation or individual? How much time are those step taking per day, asuming a fairly large amount of writing? If no such steps are taken on a daily basis, do they expect possible trademark infringers to take such steps before accidently using the term "electro_music"?

Will switching to using a underscore instead of the protected dash even protect me?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I see what you mean.

Right now we must handle the Event 2005 thingie well. Howard went for the trademark bit after discussing the issues with a lawyer buddy of his. Quite obviously we would need to protect the concept of the Electro-music 2005. One way to do this.. and actually the only sensible way available.. is going for trademarking.

Identity theft from persons is already solved by laws out there. Stealing someones identity is a crime. Trademarking is a way to connect certain concepts to ownership and in essence this is a means of handling identity and identity thefts.

I understand your angle on this, but I don´t´´see much of aproblem with TMing electro-music.com. If not I guess Clear Channel or similar spawns of Satan that would grab it if the electro-music.com 2005 event proved to be a success.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ehm, it's a trade mark on the site, not on any music, I'd think ?

Especially when I see the various responses in this thread, not really a muscal style seems to be associated with "electro-music".

So I think it's just to prevent other people making a comparable site with the same name, not to prevent anyone form making electro-music, whatever that may be.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yup, that is correct.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah! I see, well, that´s fine. You can trademark "electro-music.com" and you can trademark your "electro music 2005" festifal. Mosc´s comment had given me the impression that it was the actual phrase that was trademarked. This would realy bother me.

However, doesn´t his mean you now need to send a letter to http://www.electromusic.com/ and http://www.electromusic.co.uk/ and so on?

As sad as it is, I fear that if you realy do make a hit then clearchannel will just take it from you regardless of trademarks. You can´t win against company like that. I once spoke with a guy who had run a series of parties that got popular. He was now working for Clearchannel, he even liked this now. There was a stage in between with a little finantial "accident" where he was in no potion to choose.

I am rather paranoid, if you get my drift.

My philosphy is that I do what I do because I need to do it. I´m not a member of a artists organisation and I don´t register my songs. If a large company want to take something like a concept or a song or anything from you then they´ll take it. If you try fighting them they´ll still take it.

Remember Sony v.s. U.R.?

You may have a friend who´s a lawyer but they can send your lawyer papers faster then he can read them. They can keep that up for indefinate times but won´t need to since you´ll be out of cash soon enough.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
My philosphy is that I do what I do because I need to do it. I´m not a member of a artists organisation and I don´t register my songs. If a large company want to take something like a concept or a song or anything from you then they´ll take it. If you try fighting them they´ll still take it.


Good point... well made. I'd have to agree completely. I have no clue as to how enforcable a trademark actually is, and whether you have to focus on this kind of legal stuff to do the stuff you want. If you have a _true_ community it will survive even if the name has to change, or whatever. Then again I'm a legal know-nothing, so...

-diskonext

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I cannot quite understand Kassen here. Why not register songs and be a member of some org? Copyright law is extremely supportive for artists as long as they don´t sign everything away. Copyright law is in fact a great tool for artists. Why ignore that? European copyright law has in fact been changed because of pressure from artist groups and less from big business. However, the recent anti-piracy shit is caused by big biz partly as a way to kick artist ass and rape consumer rights. This does not mean that copyright law is bad acid. Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not to interpret Kassen here, but my own reason for avoiding all this legal hassle is that I'm not producing music to make money, and that I believe that if I would the product _me_ would have to be strong enough in it's market (which I sincerely hope is not as legal-minded / massive) to survive on it's own.

I can't put it as eloquently as Kassen, but I hope I can get my meaning across Wink

Just as I don't mind sampling *famous* artists for anything I do, or object to put MP3 mixes of records online... I try to judge whether something is "harmful" to people all on my own... bit of a moral highground, I know...

Anyway, off to bed...

-diskonext

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=MONSTER-NAME-11-10-04

Quote:


Monster fiercely protects its name

By BENNY EVANGELISTA
San Francisco Chronicle
10-NOV-04

A monster by any other name might get you sued by Monster Cable Products Inc.

The maker of electronics accessories has filed lawsuits and trademark infringement claims against dozens of companies for using "monster" in names, products or services.

The TV series "Monster Garage" and the Monster Seats above Fenway Park's left field wall have been targeted in what Monster Cable officials say is an aggressive legal strategy to protect the firm's good name.

"We have an obligation to protect our trademark; otherwise we'd lose it, " said Monster Cable founder Noel Lee.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I cannot quite understand Kassen here. Why not register songs and be a member of some org? Copyright law is extremely supportive for artists as long as they don´t sign everything away. Copyright law is in fact a great tool for artists. Why ignore that? European copyright law has in fact been changed because of pressure from artist groups and less from big business. However, the recent anti-piracy shit is caused by big biz partly as a way to kick artist ass and rape consumer rights. This does not mean that copyright law is bad acid. Shocked


Because the supposed "artists organisations" are fashid thugs going about bullying everybody. Because they take money that´s rightfully yours. Because the threatened my adopted family. because they threatened my online comunity.

Because there is nothing for me to do about that short of all out physical violence.

Here´s the story and the reasons why I put music on my site that´s free for everybody *except* the buma/stemra/ria, whatever.

A couple of years ago Mum2.0 who worked at home as a chyropractor gets a letter from the Buma. She had to pay for the music that´s playing on the radio in her waiting room. This would be quite reasonable if it weren´t for the small detail that there is no radio in her waiting room. This is a bullying tactic. They send a impressive looking letter and send it to everybody. Somebody will fall for it and pay, out of being scared. Of cource my parents2.0 didn´t which resulted in some letters back&forth and some threads before the Buma backed down.

Later they send a letter to G.D., a site partially devoted to promoting the Bunker label. The old Bunker records were released *without* copyright on principle and G.D.´s webmaster is also the webmaster of the official Bunker site. In short; not only could everybody put those clips up, it is in fact his "job" to put clips up, we are talking about short, lo-fi fragments, by the way. Well, you gessed it; Buma thinks G.D. had to pay for putting those clips up.

As I wrote before elsewhere; those artists organisations have a monopoly on a law; they demand money for all music, regardless of wether it´s registered with them and regardless of wether there actually is any music there. This means they also take money that rightfully belongs to you as a composer. If you want some percentage of that back (not everything, mind you, you can have a percentage) you will first have to *pay* them in order to get that. In exchange for this they pretend to keep track of what music is played where. Well, neither me nor any other dj I know has EVER had to fill in a form listing what tracks were played on a night at the club. What algorithem Buma bases it´s numbers on is anybody´s guess.

They are only alowed to do this because everybody lets them. This is why I refuse to sign up and why I take every oportunity to encourage people not to sign up and not to pay.

But, the topic is the protection of your rights. I did a large amount of reading on how these "organisations" work and it comes down to you signing over the exploitation rights of your work to them. This means *they*, not you get to determine what happens with it. *They* are the ones who can say "yes" and "no", a topic on which they may consult you or perhaps might not (source; the website of the dutch buma). This results in such facinating situations as you not being alowed to post your own music on your own website without paying them. Some protection of rights! Do you realy think these people will side with you against the likes of Sony and Clearchannel?

And once again; Where were those "rights" in the case of Underground Resistance against Sony? Copyright law and particularly the intention behind it are great things. I´m very much in favour of those, much like I´m in favour of Comunism. However the way it works out in practice, much like how Comunism works out in practice, truely disgusts me. It is, however, not something you can fight. You may pray it´ll go away. I doubt anything is to be gained. I hear many people in eastern Europe liked the situation better when there still was Comunism there. Aparently jobs make one happier then political freedom..... You may also try to benefit from it. Become rockstar, party member or label executive. I know of people who make music and also used to work at the Buma. I once saw one, he was smoking a cigar and acted like he was superior to everybody else. I never heard any of his music, but I hear he switched to managing a booking agency. None of the people you could book through him knew of this when he set it up. I think it went bankrupt.

I have to pick my battles. My battle is in creating something I believe hold beauty and truth. I also want to try and help add my little share to the body of electronic music, particularly where techniques and knowledge are concerned. I belelieve I have some small amount of tallent for those things. I do not have the tallent or the persistance or even the taste to defend my creations against the greed of the modern world. If Sony, or the Buma or Clearchannel want to take them they should. Fighting will get you hurt, I sincerely believe you should only fight on battlefields you desire enough to make the scars worth keeping the ground. I don´t.

I deeply identify with Winston as he sits below the chestnut tree at the end of 1984, I often imagine myself sitting there, sipping Victory Gin and looking at the chessboard though in my imagination I have my laptop there too.

I urge Mosc and you to pick you battles too. I also urge you not to prepare for fights if you´re not going to have them and not to fight if you can´t win. The choice is yours and so will the scars be.

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Kassen
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LoKi



Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 72
Location: Netherlands
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@ Kassen

Hello! Although you seem to be much better informed than me, you seem to share many of the same fears and morals pertaining to the current state of the music (s)industry.

I would love to chat to you more about this in real-time...do you use MSN messenger (or compatible)?

Also (to save me searching through this forum) could you post a link to where I can find some of your music please? (ben erg nieuwschierig)

Thanks!

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