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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
power supplies & cmos a quirky relationship
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tony void



Joined: Apr 26, 2011
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Location: Parma, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:10 am    Post subject: power supplies & cmos a quirky relationship Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's no big problem really, but I have to ask. Does any else experience their Lunette circuits locking up after a certain voltage threshold is surpassed? I'm not talking about anything beyond the recommended range. For example any schmit trigger osc I've made (the usual 40106, 4093, etc.) lock up after 8v and all counters, dividers, muxs lock up after 4v.
No problem. I just use 317 regulaters and give 'em what they're happy with. Why fight it. :-/ It's just strange that's all and I wondered if anyone else experienced this.
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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY LOCK UP?
caps lock up? Smile

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Cynosure
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Have you tried a small cap from the Vdd to the Vss pins on the ic's? Also, add resistors to the outputs. It might be drawing more current then your supply can handle.
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tony void



Joined: Apr 26, 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

By locking up I mean sticking in the high position on its output for the oscillators and dividers. The 4051 gets stuck with its 1st out (Q0) being the only one passing a signal continuosly reguardless of what happens at the data inputs.

I do have loads on outputs where needed. The chips are
decoupled properly.

I'm not overly concerned with all this, as I said it works fine as long as I dont give it more V than they want. Noise still happens so I'm happy. Just wondered if anyone else experience this.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Did you also tie unused inputs to ground?
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tony void



Joined: Apr 26, 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yup unused inputs are tied to ground. With 100k resistrs
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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tony void wrote:
Yup unused inputs are tied to ground. With 100k resistrs

They don't need resistors unless you are connecting other things to those inputs.
This is a really odd problem, you should not be seeing this, I would say that your power supply is suspect or you have dodgy CMOS chips, have you been using anti static, in storage and an anti static wrist band?

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DGTom



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Really not normal at all. One of the big advantages of CMOS is the really wide power range & the fact that most things will work the same regardless of the power supply.

Things like oscillators will have differant ranges, schmitts differant thresholds & every chip will have a differant max operating frequency, but this is generally in the mHz region so not something you'd notice for audio work

What kind of PSU are you using?

When you say you are using 317s, does that mean your clocks are running on 8V & your counters on 4V? This will cause problems unless you have the outputs thru a voltage divider and/or protection diodes on the inputs of the 4V modules.

I wouldn't discount static damage either. I've seen chips that can appear to work that do wierd things when / if they feel like it, these are invariably ones that I found loose in discount parts bins or at the bottom of one of my draws Embarassed
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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DGTom wrote:

I wouldn't discount static damage either. I've seen chips that can appear to work that do wierd things when / if they feel like it, these are invariably ones that I found loose in discount parts bins or at the bottom of one of my draws Embarassed

That could even be down to moisture or thermal damage Surprised Recently the 4060 I scavenged from an old IR sensor light acted really strangely, some of the outputs didn't work and the pinout seemed to be entirely different, I know there's some variants on this chip but it doesn't explain the highly differentiated signal I got on some outputs. I suspect it's down to moisture damage and getting too cold outside Neutral Nevertheless, it doesn't lock up.

I also realised later that it may be the differing voltages between chips which is causing problems here. We must make certain to know that logic levels are really just voltages and will behave as such.

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tony void



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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you gents for all the insight on this. I see now that I should be more concerned than my original post coveyed. I've ordered more 4051s to see if I can rule that out will try different power supply and other suggestions. I will report back soon.

P.s. sorry for the delayed responce but I have 3 kids under age of 6 that consume all of my waking moments. Laughing
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's great that you can post in your sleep then Wink
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tony void



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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

progress report:

tried new 4051 chips (recieved 5 from tayda today) same circuit
worked fine @ 4 volt reg power but not at 8 volt.
switched power supply, used my bk precision bench supply = same problem

so I guess the chips are fine (and yes I'm using anti static wrist band and handeling the chips with extreme care)
power supply doesn't seem to be the culprit as both source are reliable.

must be something with the way I have it wired up.

off to learn me some schematic software so I can post a pic online Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
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-minus-



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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are you sure you are powering the chips correctly? From the right pins?
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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tony void wrote:
Yup unused inputs are tied to ground. With 100k resistrs

Try connecting them directly to 1 or 0 (ground or +V) without resistors.
Are you sure you are using 4000 series cmos not 74HC series or something?
74 TTL series chips don't work above 5 volts you see.

P.S.
tony void wrote:

off to learn me some schematic software so I can post a pic online Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

I use a paint program Wink it's easier in some aspects.

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Psyingo



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:


P.S.
tony void wrote:

off to learn me some schematic software so I can post a pic online Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

I use a paint program Wink it's easier in some aspects.


I wouldn't suggest using a paint program, that's sloppy. I recommend eagle, as it's what i use, and is free. It has a bit of a learning curve to begin with but wouldn't take very long to get used to. Once you got it you can crank out schematics cleanly and easily.
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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Psyingo wrote:

I wouldn't suggest using a paint program, that's sloppy.

I disagree, evidence: see attachment.


melogitron schematics.png
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melogitron schematics.png



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Psyingo



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
Psyingo wrote:

I wouldn't suggest using a paint program, that's sloppy.

I disagree, evidence: see attachment.


sorry that looks sloppy. none of the pins are marked. are those and gates or nand gates?

i would like to know how using a paint program is better than using a dedicated schematic capture program. indulge me.
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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Psyingo wrote:
JingleJoe wrote:
Psyingo wrote:

I wouldn't suggest using a paint program, that's sloppy.

I disagree, evidence: see attachment.


sorry that looks sloppy. none of the pins are marked. are those and gates or nand gates?

i would like to know how using a paint program is better than using a dedicated schematic capture program. indulge me.

Freedom. But also I didn't say that a paint program is better than a dedicated schematic program, I said it is easier in some aspects, please don't put words in my mouth, I put alot of care into my wording so that it conveys exactly what I mean, do not make your own interpretations.

In my experience the schematic programs I have used have little problems and niggles which take too much time and fiddling to circumvent and often lack certain features which I can acheive in a paint program in three clicks and as many seconds.
I could have numbered those pins if I wanted to but a label should suffice.
The gates are generic gates, NAND gates would have a circle at the end like they allways do, the gates I drew were merely to demonstrate how to connect some gates, any would work you see?

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Psyingo



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JigleJoe wrote:
why are you taking my advice!?


pretty much sums it up.

my suggestion of eagle stands, it's very good.
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/
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-minus-



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
I put alot of care into my wording


Laughing
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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Psyingo wrote:
JigleJoe wrote:
why are you taking my advice!?


pretty much sums it up.

my suggestion of eagle stands, it's very good.
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/

-minus- wrote:
JingleJoe wrote:
I put alot of care into my wording


Laughing

you know what? both of you could just stop being utter dicks to me or anyone who has different, possibly worse ideas than you do. If you have another way of doing something which you think is better then share it, don't be a dick about it. Oh and if I think you're laughing at what I think you are, look again; I said wording, not spelling so get off your high horse.
I have only experienced derision and vitriol from you both. I will not be replying to anything else you say unless you can be more decent and polite.

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-minus-



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now, now... don't get your goggles steamed up! Maybe it's just me JungleJoe, but you do seem to have an over inflated sense of self worth and come across as quite arrogant. But hey, who cares what I think. I'm certainly not taking your advice anyway. Wink

PS: Thanks for the dick compliment! Very decent and polite of you, sir. Laughing
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Psyingo



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oops, this thread got derailed, sorry for that Tonyvoid. Hope your problem gets solved.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Make music, not war Shocked

There is nothing wrong for each to use their own ways ... and certainly no need need to call each other words for that ... please have some respect for each other.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would agree that using a schematics package is an advantage since it will contain some fairly standard looking symbols. In my own work, I do admit to using Microsoft Paint to create schematics, but I created a library of symbols (in a GIF file) that look (to me) to be standard and "pretty".

I hereby donate...

Take it or leave it... Smile

I drew all of these myself. Feel free to download, save and then edit them if you don't like some of my style...


parts.gif
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parts.gif



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