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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Wish List
Improved user manual and the posibilty to sort patches
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Rare Bird Productions



Joined: Feb 26, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:28 am    Post subject: Improved user manual and the posibilty to sort patches Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are 2 improvements I would like to see.

First I would love to have a bigger user manual with more information on what each module does, how it can be used and how all different connections work, how can they be used and things like that.
A good example is the way the Status module is described. At least it gives some examples of how it can be used. I would love to see examles on how to use the 2 other connections on this module. But at least it gives some examples, which would be usefull with the other modules as well.
I would go with a seperate book on modular synthesis as well.
Besides the user manual seems to be written onlt with the keyboard-version in mind. How certain things can be done with the G2 Engine is hard to find out.
Other things I miss in the manual is a more thoughly description about the memory use and the polyphony. For instance I had experimented with the status-module to create seperate voices in a patch, but although the memory-use wasn't really big, the polyphony was limited to 2 voices. When I closed some slots, this was fixed. This wasn't clear for me in the manual. I suppose it's my limited knowledge of English. But well, since English isn't my mother-tongue, my knowledge will be allway less than that of some-one who has English as mothertongue.

My second wish would be to be able to sort sounds on catagory. It is possible to do this on the keyboard-versions, but I can't find out if this is possible on the engine.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Improved user manual and the posibilty to sort patches Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rare Bird Productions wrote:

My second wish would be to be able to sort sounds on catagory. It is possible to do this on the keyboard-versions, but I can't find out if this is possible on the engine.


I play the G2X and I would welcome this too, as an additional feature in the Patch Browser tool in the editor. This is an excellent suggestion, IMHO.

No matter how good it is, the manual could always be better. The G2 is a deep insturment. You won't be able to buy one book and learn to master the violin. I think the same could be said for the G2, which is a much more complex instrument.

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Rare Bird Productions



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Improved user manual and the posibilty to sort patches Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Rare Bird Productions wrote:

My second wish would be to be able to sort sounds on catagory. It is possible to do this on the keyboard-versions, but I can't find out if this is possible on the engine.


I play the G2X and I would welcome this too, as an additional feature in the Patch Browser tool in the editor. This is an excellent suggestion, IMHO.

No matter how good it is, the manual could always be better. The G2 is a deep insturment. You won't be able to buy one book and learn to master the violin. I think the same could be said for the G2, which is a much more complex instrument.

I still have my first analog synthesizer, a Roland System 100 model 101 semi-modular synthesizer, which is very basic: 1 ADSR, 1 LFO, 1 VCO, 1 low pass filter and 1 VCF and still the manual is something like 76 pages. I have Cubase VST which has several manuals on CD-rom and I think they are a total of perhaps 1000 pages. It would be nice to have a more indept perspective on the G2, since it's basicly ment to be an instrument to create your own sounds. I have several synthesizers and it often looks like, allthough they are more complex than my first analog synthesizer, the manuals haven't put up with this complexity.
The owner manual of the Kawai K1rII is just 50 pages and that of the Yamaha TX81Z is 86. Both give hardly an indept view of the synthesizer.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree on the polyphony, it´s woefully underdocumented. Sadly this apears to be a problem in most digital soft-modulars. It´s causing me no end of headaches with Tassman too. Prefab polyphony and modulars simply don´t work that well together because the scope of the instrument itself becomes blurry. I stick to my opinion that what we need is classes and that polyphony should be one possible use for those as could for example grains be. Adressing any one single voice at any moment but initation requires a amount of upside-down logic that makes Prolog apear positively conservative. The problem is that some things will be identical for all voices while others will vary. Some of those things that vary are reset once a voice is triggered, others are not. At the very least the manual should clearly list these things because right now it quite confusing and the reasons for the choices made are not at all clear. This results in unexpected malfunctions and glitches and so on.

I strongly disagree on patch sorting, at least with the current system of patch tagging. This system, like marking the pages of the interface with words like "filter" is IMHO a extremely bad idea since it implies a certain "correct usage" for what should be a openended system. I´d rather see either those names disapear or be replaced by some more abstract system. I see this as comparable to pianos being sold with "Für Eliza" printed on the front. I´d rather not see more attention being draw to the conservative sides of the G2. Even if Für Eliza is a wonderfull piece and oscilators admittedly essential building block for some perfectly valid forms of synthesis.

Exactly how many freakin´modulars *are* there in the The Hague area?
:¬)

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Rare Bird Productions



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I strongly disagree on patch sorting, at least with the current system of patch tagging. This system, like marking the pages of the interface with words like "filter" is IMHO a extremely bad idea since it implies a certain "correct usage" for what should be a openended system. I´d rather see either those names disapear or be replaced by some more abstract system. I see this as comparable to pianos being sold with "Für Eliza" printed on the front. I´d rather not see more attention being draw to the conservative sides of the G2. Even if Für Eliza is a wonderfull piece and oscilators admittedly essential building block for some perfectly valid forms of synthesis.

Exactly how many freakin´modulars *are* there in the The Hague area?
:¬)


Well, in a way you are right, but still I think it would be usefull, to sort out sounds I don't need. I'm not really interested in the sequenced stuff, since it's not very usable for my own music. Perhaps it would be handy to give your own categories, but since the factory presets come with those categories, it would be handy to sort them. I can make seperate banks for my own sounds to sort them a bit, but the factory presets are a bit different.

I don't know how many modulars there are in the The Hague area, but judging from this list, I'm not the only one. And I suppose we are all making a different kind of music with it.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I see what you mean. I would just prefer a more "polydimentional" sorting system, possibly with the option to add one´s own categories. For example, you could then take the "sequenced" patches, kick out all the "dance" ones yet leave in the patches that would be both "sequenced" and "acoustic" or some such system. "Sequenced" is a usefull category, I think, but after that it quickly becomes blurry. I could well imagine a patch that would be "acoustic", "bass" and "sequenced" to boot. This patch might or might not be "experimental" according to the maker which might not have any relation at all to how the end-user preceives it.....

I´d like to have a whole set of dimentions, each of which could be used for sorting. "sad" v.s. "happy" and "introvert" v.s. "extrovert" and so on and so forth. I think it´s important that composers would be alble to set their own categories. Perhaps I´d like to sort my patches by sex, age and religion or by shape, colour and size. Because the G2 is such a open ended system the implied frame of reference will have a influence that´s perhaps larger then that of some other synth. Being able to set one´s own frame of reference might create a more personal feel which can only be good.

Ah, well, those are just my thoughts. Perhaps sorting realy is a good idea, I´m just not realy into those categories as they stand.

Oh, and The Hague as a rediculously high number of modular fanatics, over a very wide range of music indeed.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, it would be good to be able to create your own category names. When the G2 first came out the catagories seemed very arbitrary, but I set up forums for each category so as to allow some form of sorting. When I did this, several people critisized these arbitrary catagories as being of little value, but since then nobody has come up with a better system. We have added a few categories, but no too many. I think the piano, pad, organ etc do have some value.
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jamos



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having implemented categorization schemes on two software synthesizers, I feel that the system Clavia is using - a fixed set of category names - is far and away the best.

The problem with an unbounded system is that the number of categories quickly grows so large as to be unusable. My current employer's product has pianos listed under the following categories:

Piano
General MIDI: Keyboard
pno

.. and several others. So if you want to search for pianos, you have to look in at least three separate categories, probably more.

There are those who have no use for pianos. Fine. I don't think that the use of existing musical phrases is necessarily a value judgement, simply a recognition that these broad categories do exist and are used by many people.

The real point is that any categorization system can quickly become unusable if it grows too flexible.. and since that is not a primary feature of a synth, it's better to just use a simple system.

Incidentally.. on one of the systems I worked on (Seer Systems's SurReal), after we worked out the categories I assigned tiny icons to each. There were three synth categories - MonoSynths, PolySynths and SynthNoises. I used images of a MiniMooog, Prophet 5, and ARP 2600 for those. Fun. For the "vocals" category I almost used an image of the head of a porn star in the throes of ecstasy.. but then decided that was not a good idea.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It would be nice to have a more indept perspective on the G


As for documentation, it seems this community is full of more information than clavia could accurately provide in a timely manner. This sounds like an extension to the "building blocks" forum, but more module specific.

If this sounds like a good idea, Howard, why don't we just make (yet another) forum for open discussion on modules. (maybe one thread per module?)
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Rare Bird Productions



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:
Having implemented categorization schemes on two software synthesizers, I feel that the system Clavia is using - a fixed set of category names - is far and away the best.

The problem with an unbounded system is that the number of categories quickly grows so large as to be unusable. My current employer's product has pianos listed under the following categories:

Piano
General MIDI: Keyboard
pno

.. and several others. So if you want to search for pianos, you have to look in at least three separate categories, probably more.

There are those who have no use for pianos. Fine. I don't think that the use of existing musical phrases is necessarily a value judgement, simply a recognition that these broad categories do exist and are used by many people.

The real point is that any categorization system can quickly become unusable if it grows too flexible.. and since that is not a primary feature of a synth, it's better to just use a simple system.

Incidentally.. on one of the systems I worked on (Seer Systems's SurReal), after we worked out the categories I assigned tiny icons to each. There were three synth categories - MonoSynths, PolySynths and SynthNoises. I used images of a MiniMooog, Prophet 5, and ARP 2600 for those. Fun. For the "vocals" category I almost used an image of the head of a porn star in the throes of ecstasy.. but then decided that was not a good idea.

I think so to. With my Kawai K1rII I have created the following categories:
Bass, Brass, Clav (clavinet and harpsichord-like sounds), Combi, Drums, Echo, Effect, Harm (harmonica and accordeon-like sounds), Choir, Organ, Perc, Piano, Solo, String, Synth, Picked, Wind.
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Rare Bird Productions



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
Quote:
It would be nice to have a more indept perspective on the G


As for documentation, it seems this community is full of more information than clavia could accurately provide in a timely manner. This sounds like an extension to the "building blocks" forum, but more module specific.

If this sounds like a good idea, Howard, why don't we just make (yet another) forum for open discussion on modules. (maybe one thread per module?)

Sounds like an interesting idea.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have no problem making more forums. But we don't need one to get started on this process. Just start a topic with the module of your choice. After there are more than a handfull of them, I can create a new forum and move the module topics there. I can see there being lots of discussion on some modules, and vertually none on others.

That said, to me it's more interesting how the modules are interconnected. Thus, I'd be more interested in a discussion of a surround sound panner patch than one on the level shifter module. Just my opinion.

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Rare Bird Productions



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I have no problem making more forums. But we don't need one to get started on this process. Just start a topic with the module of your choice. After there are more than a handfull of them, I can create a new forum and move the module topics there. I can see there being lots of discussion on some modules, and vertually none on others.

That said, to me it's more interesting how the modules are interconnected. Thus, I'd be more interested in a discussion of a surround sound panner patch than one on the level shifter module. Just my opinion.

Well, of course it has also to do with how modules are interconnected, but in the manual the Status module is described and it's shown how to use it with other modules. In fact there are just some suggestions, but with those suggestions I created a sound I put on this forum, by more or less expanding an example used in the manual. From 4 voices and 4 waveforms I went to 4 voices and 4 synthesizers.
I have downloaded several sounds from this forum and often I see modules I don't know what their function is.

Perhaps some discussions on certain modules can be started as questions in the question-forum.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sure, we can always start a topic called something like "Using the XXX module" or something.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:
Having implemented categorization schemes on two software synthesizers, I feel that the system Clavia is using - a fixed set of category names - is far and away the best.


Well, I respect that, but in my usage categories would go like this;

*mutated forms of Kraplus-Strong. (this one covers more then half of it and needs sub categories based on mood or principle or something)
*Do weird stuff with midi that Live won´t do.
*Tools for remote controling guitar effect routings.
*other stuff.
*a "lowercase sound" category we place here because we expect to need it later.

None of this is particularly experimental since I generally know ahead what should happen and none of it sounds like anything I know (if it did I´d just sample that and be done with it). Some stray ones sequence themselves but that apears like a minor side elemement not worth sorting on.

There´s no real problem; I can sort my patches myself and I never see the front panel interface as I use a engine (If I do decide to get my own G2 k.b. I´ll just redo those letters), but there´s a nagging feeling like being a boy in the girl´s toilet, a feeling like you are not supposed to be here even if you can use everything present for your needs and even if you are alone.

It´s a instrument for expression. Feeling is important.

I´m in favour of indepth module discussions, by the way. If there turns out to be a market for that discussion we can then archive good bits to a database, then compile them into a pdf or something.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen, your catagories are interesting. Come to think of it, I have stuff in individual banks that are organized according to my quirky point of view. If you could name banks, that would do a lot.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I honestly don´t know why everybody looks down on K-S synthesis. It´s like patatoes; Boring by itself but with some cooking and aditional ingredients all you need! Much like patatoes you can fry K-S too, there are some inherent re-sampling aspects to it that can be abused so you can go from "acoustic" to "post digital" at the twist of a midi controler.
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Rare Bird Productions



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I honestly don´t know why everybody looks down on K-S synthesis. It´s like patatoes; Boring by itself but with some cooking and aditional ingredients all you need! Much like patatoes you can fry K-S too, there are some inherent re-sampling aspects to it that can be abused so you can go from "acoustic" to "post digital" at the twist of a midi controler.

What is K-S synthesis?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rare Bird Productions wrote:

What is K-S synthesis?

Kraplus-Strong and/or Karplus-Strong Shocked

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
Rare Bird Productions wrote:

What is K-S synthesis?

Kraplus-Strong and/or Karplus-Strong Shocked

And what, may I ask, is Karplus-Strong?

I allready had figured out K-S ment Karplus-Strong, but that still leaves me in the dark.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rare Bird Productions wrote:
allready had figured out K-S ment Karplus-Strong, but that still leaves me in the dark.



Do you mean that links like http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/SimpleStrings/Karplus_Strong_Algorithm.html
don't help you very much ?

Jan.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Rare Bird Productions wrote:
allready had figured out K-S ment Karplus-Strong, but that still leaves me in the dark.



Do you mean that links like http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/SimpleStrings/Karplus_Strong_Algorithm.html
don't help you very much ?

Jan.

It helps a bit, but I don't have a degree in physics.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rare Bird Productions wrote:

It helps a bit, but I don't have a degree in physics.


A more hands on example : http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmodularbook/nm_physical.html#karplus-strong

Of course the G2 has a module to do stuff like this.

Jan.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm.. something tells me Carlo will love that module..
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can't wait to hear it ...

Jan.
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