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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Anyone here know how to accurately reproduce an 808 clap?
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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
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G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:11 am    Post subject: Anyone here know how to accurately reproduce an 808 clap? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello. I have come up with several nice sounding clap sounds on my G2, but none of them are quite like the 808 style clap that I'm after. So, does anyone know the secret of how to reproduce this sound? I believe that it has a very fast, quickly decaying kind of tremelo, which is easy enough to recreate. According to a (long since) past article in Sound on Sound magazine, there is also a burst of a saw wave in the sound (as well as noise), but I have experimented with this with no success.
I have an old Drumstation, which has this clap sound that I'm after and when I compare it to my G2 claps, I have to say that is pi**es all over them! Why am I trying to reproduce the sound if I already have it? Two reasons; 1. I am trying to learn to create complex patches and I thought that this would have been an easy start!!! 2. I am a control freak and want more control over the sound than the Drumstation offers me!
So please, please, please let me know if can reproduce this sound or have any relevant ideas.

Many thanks in advance (although I wouldn't be surprised if I get no replies as this is a bit tricky),

Sheridan
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triptonizer



Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 22
Location: wonderland
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Sheridan, have you checked James Clark's Nordmodularbook yet? http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmodularbook/nm_book_toc.html It's the ideal control freak manual! Wink It's all NM1, but most patches can be translated easily into G2 format.

There's a nice 909 clap in the Percussion section. 909 and 808 basically had the same circuitry, if it's the 808 sound you're after, perhaps leave the 'Click -> Highpass' section out of the final mix, since the sharp attack it creates is typical of the 909 clap.


clp.JPG
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clp.JPG


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ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thats very good, I think a Saturate helps a little too.


909clap.pch2
 Description:
808/909 clap

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 Filename:  909clap.pch2
 Filesize:  1.59 KB
 Downloaded:  827 Time(s)

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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks guys, that sounds pretty close. Personally, I think it sounds more like the 808 clap, as the 909 sounds as if it has a secondary, longer tail. But this is pretty much what I was after and with a little tweaking, I'm sure that I'll be able to get a wide selection of claps from it, so thanks again.
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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again. I've been busy since my last post! I spent ages adjusting the various parameters on the 909 clap patch attached above, comparing it to my Drumstations 808 clap, but couldn't get it sounding at all right! I needed to add a few pairs of HP and LP filters to get more presice control, which gave me a slight improvement. I decided to get technical and record the two claps into Wavelab, so that I could compare them visually. It was a good idea, because straight away, I could see that the initial delayed claps were out of time and when I had adjusted the times accordingly, I heard a definite improvement... Curiously, the actual delay times don't match the G2 parameter values (see attached pic).
After adding a quieter, third noise tail I am now pretty close to the 808 sound (listen to attached example: 4 G2 claps, 4 Drumstation claps, 4 G2 claps, 4 Drumstation claps).
I have noticed a few things. Firstly the drumstation claps sound more smooth and seem to have more power in the mid to low-mid region despite the spectrum analyser readouts being very similar down to just under 250 Hz (see pic: pink trace - Drumstation, orange trace - G2). Then there is that mysterious bump from 0 - 250 Hz (from the Drumstation), which may account for the extra 'weight'. I couldn't reproduce it with noise. Lastly, the Wavelab '808 clap' (Drumstation) audio waveform clearly shows a few extra peaks after the tail sound comes in on the 4th delay. It is probably simple, but I wasn't really sure how to add some more....
So... I'm hoping that now I've laid it all out so clearly for you all, that some modular genius may be able to finish it off correctly??
Any ideas anyone?

I have also attached the edited previous patch supplied by G2ian.


808 claps.jpg
 Description:
G2 - homemade 808 clap - Orange trace
Drumstation - 808 clap - Pink trace
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 Viewed:  7970 Time(s)

808 claps.jpg



808 Clap.pch2
 Description:
New, improved 808 clap

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 Filename:  808 Clap.pch2
 Filesize:  2.7 KB
 Downloaded:  790 Time(s)


808 clap example.mp3
 Description:
808 clap example: G2 - 1st 4 and 3rd 4
Drumstation - 2nd 4 and 4th 4

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 Filename:  808 clap example.mp3
 Filesize:  256.15 KB
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Afro88



Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 701
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That patch sounds pretty damn close hey. I don't know how much more tweaking you'd want to do to get it exact - you've already got that sound on your drumstation! The main difference I can hear is that each clap is different on the G2. Depending on your style of music, you may want to sample a bunch of them and save the best ones to use.

But yeah, very nice clap - thanks for the patch Smile
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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I spotted the fact that each sounds different, etc.... it's a shame there isn't a kind of sync in option on the noise module, although if I were desperate, I might be able to do this using FM on a synced osc module with noise as it's source.

I don't want to exactly reproduce the Drumstation to use (as you said.. I already have it), but I do want to exactly reproduce it as a starting point to tweak from. You see, the drumstation 808 clap only has level and tune parameters, but I would like to get the beginning the same, but with longer tails or whatever.

Can you hear that the Drumstation clap sounds 'sharper', more well defined, etc? Can anyone get the attached patch any closer? Fingers crossed.

p.s. glad you like the clap.
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Jason



Joined: Aug 12, 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA. USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm , I think this is pretty darn good so far.
I too have a drum station, but with having so many drum machines and
with them all having different clap sounds I just try using them as that , different. I have a few boss drum modules too that are all sample based and I use those 808 clap sounds too. I guess this is of little help to you since your wanting to even more closely emulate this 808 clap but with more control. But then with more control it isnt an 808 clap anymore anyways. Though I do understand your point.
Maybe adding or utilizing an envelope for controlling the dynamics and or sustaining the sound more to your liking. Honestly I am pretty impressed with the patch so far. But I just dont know how much closer you can get it.
Just wanted to comment is all. Again point being that after you add more decay it isnt going to be like an 808 clap or is it? Anyway , often times as you probably know the tails are added by reverb but that is a whole other subject, but just a reminder.
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ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are you going for a drum station sound or an 808 sound? The variation present in the G2 is probably closer to the original. Samples are a compromise IMHO.
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sheridan



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The bit that I'm most interested in is the attack portion, or the first few dozen milliseconds... the bit that transforms the noise from more of a snare sound to that of a clap... the 'crack'.
I agree that I have come quite close and maybe all it will take is to add a few more delays after the tail starts. I'll give it a go sooner or later when I have some time to experiment. I still feel that the provided Drumstation clap sounds better although I'm not sure how - there's definately more lo-mid to it, yet it also sounds sharper. I couldn't achieve this by simply altering the filters.
Maybe I'm just being anal, but I do like my sounds to sound as I like them to sound!
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Afro88



Joined: Jun 20, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm, try running another envelope on the 1st and 3rd clap. Use an ADSR, and set your attack time very low and the sustain about half to 3/4 to get an extra sharp transient on top of the decay one that's already running. From the look of the waveforms that's the main difference, the initial crack of the first and 3rd clap has a sharp attack.

This could have something to do with the 808's noise though. Analogue noise tends to be more chaotic, so you'll get a bit more space between the loud and soft bits at times, instead of the even distribution of freqency/dynamics of digital noise. This might be why the 808 waveform has spikes in the tail, because of the noise's flucuations. So the inital crack of the 1st and 3rd claps might have just caught a high fluctuation....
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
The bit that I'm most interested in is the attack portion, or the first few dozen milliseconds... the bit that transforms the noise from more of a snare sound to that of a clap... the 'crack'.
I agree that I have come quite close and maybe all it will take is to add a few more delays after the tail starts. I'll give it a go sooner or later when I have some time to experiment. I still feel that the provided Drumstation clap sounds better although I'm not sure how - there's definately more lo-mid to it, yet it also sounds sharper. I couldn't achieve this by simply altering the filters.
Maybe I'm just being anal, but I do like my sounds to sound as I like them to sound!


Rob Hordijk posted quite some elelents that try to get some behaviour of analog circuits into the G2... The harmonik distortion patches he did might help to change the tonal colour in the direction you want it to be.

The circuits in a drummaschine contain very simple build env´s there are DC offsets and unlinaritys in the components that cause distortions that shift the wave form and therefore its tonal content.

You also might try to build your own noisegenerators with the trigered random moduls or the patterngenerators...i am not sure why your noise source is changing colour in such significant ways that your clapsounds differ... The 808 has just a noise source that runs free as the G2´s...
maybe you ve to much lowend content in your noise resulting in different dc offsets in the moment the env´s are triggering. some lowcutting allways helps in analog simulations..
I dont think that the 808 clap has much below 100 Herz....
Or you can lowcutt the noise and add some fundamentels with resetable oscs...
I ve a look when i can test the patch....
I however appreciate to have a 808 clap for the G2...thanks for your research...
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Unfed



Joined: May 11, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Are you going for a drum station sound or an 808 sound? The variation present in the G2 is probably closer to the original. Samples are a compromise IMHO.


the Drumstation's 808 sounds are all VA-based, no?

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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the input guys. I'll look forward to trying out some of those ideas on the weekend.

Quote:
the Drumstation's 808 sounds are all VA-based, no?


The Drumstation is actually a digital machine that uses a combination of 'Analog Sound Modelling' and samples. The 808 clap on it is a sample.[/quote]
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Jason



Joined: Aug 12, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes yes I love my drumstation.
It has the best emulations available for 808 & 909 imo.
Some sounds use novations ASM (Analog Sound Modeling) and some
sounds use both samples and the ASM together. fun stuff Smile
And yes the clap though is just a sample, but damn good...
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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I've done my best! I've ended up with a heavy (cpu) patch that sounds a bit better than the last. I've added more distortion (thanks to Rob Hordijk)and FM and even more filters, then assigned the main clap parameters to the morph controls. Finally, I made up some different variations. Turned out ok I think, but I'm still not quite satisfied - I still think the Drumstation clap sounds smoother, but it could just be the filter on it.
Anyway I've attached the 'update' if your interested.


Clap machine.pch2
 Description:
Clap machine featuring 808 style claps and others.

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 Filename:  Clap machine.pch2
 Filesize:  4.12 KB
 Downloaded:  750 Time(s)

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