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Halo 3
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bachus



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:08 am    Post subject: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't play video games so I don't know what these things are really like but from reading descriptions I have to wonder if games like Halo influence the attitudes of the young in such a way that participating in war seems more attractive than it might otherwise.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My kids play Halo 2. We won't do Halo 3 because it's only available for X-Box and we won't ever have one of those.

But as far as the Halo 2 and why they play, I think they like the challenge. They like to log onto servers and play against others. I don't think it really means they condone real war. It's only a game.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I don't play video games so I don't know what these things are really like but from reading descriptions I have to wonder if games like Halo influence the attitudes of the young in such a way that participating in war seems more attractive than it might otherwise.


I wonder.... Did Metal Slug influence them? War in Metal Slug means dying. A lot.

I also want to go on record that I did go to dark halls, did much pills listening to repetitive music but not because of Pacman.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I also want to go on record that I did go to dark halls, did much pills listening to repetitive music but not because of Pacman.


But as you did(?) play Pacman we'll never really know will we? Laughing

How about sex. If a game was based on sex, say between a married couple ( just to stay safe). Killing in war is sanctioned by society as is sex in marriage. What would the reaction to it be? Would you let your children (or grandchildren) play it? If not, what is the difference?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have no problem at all with sex. I don't see why children shouldn't play games about sex, asuming that's what they wanted and asuming parental supervision. I find it quite unlikely that a child would want to play a game about sex before puberty though.

I would strictly forbid games that implied sex was only a thing for straight married couples though, that's not a message I approve of and likely much more dangerous to the child's eventual health then seeing sexual images but for example "The Sims" which hints at sexuality below the blurry censorship and allows for many kinds of relationship would be fine. I don't think it goes into all of the exotic variations that might occur in "the wild" but there is no real need for that either and I respect that games need to fit on a DVD.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I have no problem at all with sex. .


It never occured to me you would. Laughing
But don't you think there is something significant going on here?
Again, what do you think the reaction to it would be?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, you are right, there IS something going on. In movies the ratings boards do the same and apply stronger ratings to sex then to violence which is really quite silly. Somehow people still ahve the mistaken idea that games are only for childeren, despite what statistical data says. Frankly I'm disturbed that modern movies sell at all as that means the people I stand next to in public transports find violence more exciting then sex. I believe that to be a pathological disorder that's quite serious and generally needs a lot of treatment despite the slim chance of recovery.

I also find it odd that cartoons like G.I.Joe which are -at their core- about paid killers are acceptable for children but that a cartoon about a sex-worker wouldn't be. Evidently G.I.Joe has a positive message with them being paid killers that want to stop terrorism but there could be cartoons about those sexworkers that specialise in "relieving" the disabled.

Of course in G.I.Joe nobody ever gets S*** and D*** but we could easily make a cartoon about a sexworker who never actually gets fucked. (Yes, I did sensor "shot" and "dies" and didn't sensor "fucked". I did that on purpose and highly doubt I will apologise).

I find this cultural trend bothersome. It's also amusing that with last year's violent game "God of War" the (threesome) sex-scene had to be removed from the US edition. I found the sex-scene quite funny and played through it three or four times because I got points for it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From

http://www.ezinearticles.com/?Video-Game-Demographics&id=352934

"According to video game demographics, 39% of people who play computer and video games are women. Forty percent of online gamers are also women. Thirty five percent of game players are usually under eighteen years, and 65% of game players are over eighteen years old. The average age of a video game player is 18 years old. Video games are widely used by 18 to 34 year old people. People in this age range spend more time in playing video games than watching the television."

and the age of enlistment

http://www.ijoa.org/imta96/paper29.html

I'm not trying to establish a causal link only that the age scales fit--sex drive, videogames, and enlistment are all near peak values at about the same age.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I don't play video games so I don't know what these things are really like but from reading descriptions I have to wonder if games like Halo influence the attitudes of the young in such a way that participating in war seems more attractive than it might otherwise.


I would imagine no more than playing a game of chess? Rolling Eyes Idea

How about a game of chess with death? Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

How about a game of chess with death? Wink

couldn't checkmate be defined as the king's death Question

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If there's a link I think it doesn't extend further then that people looking for violent thrills would be attracted to both Halo and war (to a certain extend) and that people vulnerable to Halo marketing might also be vulnerable to promotions by the army.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:

couldn't checkmate be defined as the king's death Question


I heard the Bishop goes sideways and stands next to the Queen.... It's probably about sex, not violence. This was on BBC television, even, in a documentary called "Bottom", they must be the experts.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
v-un-v wrote:

How about a game of chess with death? Wink

couldn't checkmate be defined as the king's death Question


well yes.

And it can be as brutal as you want it to be. If anything computer games take away from ones imagination because they offer their own visuals (and ones own imagination can be many times more brutal if necessary).

So Bachus, I'm afraid that I strongly disagree with you. I don't believe at all that computer games increase the attraction of war and fighting.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

to quote our lord and saviour...
"I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?" Zappa
addressing the Senate Hearing on Porn Rock (1985) in response to Tipper Gore's allegations that music incites people towards deviant behavior, or influences their behavior in general (Zappa is referring to his song "Montana")

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked


Stan, are you sure this new record contract isn't getting to you a tad?? Rolling Eyes

Shocked

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Stanley Pain wrote:
to quote our lord and saviour...
"I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?" Zappa
addressing the Senate Hearing on Porn Rock (1985) in response to Tipper Gore's allegations that music incites people towards deviant behavior, or influences their behavior in general (Zappa is referring to his song "Montana")


He also told people to eat their vegetables, and I know it didn't work on me, at least.

I've never thought that video games give a decidedly positive image of war, but I do think they may give it a nice polished look that keeps people from really understanding the reality of what, since its topical, goes on in Iraq on a day to day basis. Also, I can't imagine video games are any more of a culprit than our wonderful network news agencies.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We used to have a counter strike-session (terrorists vs anti-terrorists, for a very long time the largest online game, probably surpassed by World of Warcraft nowadays) once a week at work a couple of years ago. Walking home afterwards I used to giggle at myself for checking for snipers behind girders and cars. Some of my colleagues had similar experiences.

Still, I think that these types of video games are much better than TV, which is mostly one-way information pumped into the apathetic citizen's brain. There are also messages hidden in there that are at least as profound as those in "Road House" (even if Mike Nelson calls it "the single finest American film").

I think that regulating or censoring video games should be opposed, just like regulating movies or other media, but I wouldn't say that video games can't have a bad influence on people, old or young.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
So Bachus, I'm afraid that I strongly disagree with you. I don't believe at all that computer games increase the attraction of war and fighting.


Uh... what did I say that you disagree with? I can assure that it is true that I do wonder about the question, i.e. does it make war seem more attractive? But I have drawn no conclusion. I have not seen good studies on the matter, but I'm still looking. I really try not to draw conclusion with out evidence. In anycase I oppose all forms of censorship and am a card carrying member of the ACLU. So even if there were studies supporting a connection between the games and enlistment I would not favor a legislative solution, unless the government were funding the games, that is.

I find most interesting that there is no parity between society's treatment of (sanctioned) sex and violence and think that is worth addressing and wonder why almost no one, even here, wants to touch it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="bachus"]
v-un-v wrote:
So even if there were studies supporting a connection between the games and enlistment I would not favor a legislative solution, unless the government were funding the games, that is.


http://www.americasarmy.com/

Always found that to be a bit of a pink elephant when I would hear staunch conservatives attacking video games for being too violent, yet they would support anything the US military did.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Low Note wrote:
http://www.americasarmy.com/


Interesting ...

Quote:
Launched in July 2002 the America's Army game, which is rated "T" for Teen by the ESRB, has become one of the most popular computer games in the world. America's Army has penetrated contemporary culture and is one of the most recognizable game brands as a result of its unique inside perspective of the U.S. Army and its exciting gameplay. As the game's popularity continued to grow with each of its dozens of new version releases, the Army has expanded its brand through a variety of products including console and cell phone games, America's Army merchandise such as t-shirts, the Real Heroes program which tells the stories of heroic Soldiers, training applications for use within the military and government sectors, and the incredible Virtual Army Experience. In the near future, the America's Army brand will expand with the launch of America's Army: True Soldiers for Xbox 360 in the Fall of 2007 and America's Army version 3.0 next year.

In the America's Army game, players are bound by Rules of Engagement (ROE) and grow in experience as they navigate challenges in teamwork-based, multiplayer, force versus force operations. In the game, as in the Army, accomplishing missions requires a team effort and adherence to the seven Army Core Values. Through its emphasis on team play, the game demonstrates these values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity and personal courage and makes them integral to success in America's Army.

In keeping with the dynamic nature of Soldiering, the America's Army game will continue to expand and will allow players to explore the Army of today, tomorrow and the future.
There's strong, and then there's Army Strong!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right, and they are going to release prison camp modules as well?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I find most interesting that there is no parity between society's treatment of (sanctioned) sex and violence and think that is worth addressing and wonder why almost no one, even here, wants to touch it.

I remember a homeschool discussion where the question came up, "What animal would you like to be?" and one of our animal loving kids responded without hesitation, "The Bonobo!" http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/4451/BonobosLikeHumans.html

I used to play soldier a lot as a kid, and our kid who wrote the essay on conscientious objection that may help save his life some day (I hope it doesn't come to that), used to play war games with his buddies in the back yard. In fact, I scripted an anti-war song early in the Iraq war, where he'd fire machine gun plastic pellets off my banjo head as I played, but we never staged it due to fear of eye injury.

Of course, maybe we're not typical cases.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Low Note wrote:
bachus wrote:
So even if there were studies supporting a connection between the games and enlistment I would not favor a legislative solution, unless the government were funding the games, that is.

http://www.americasarmy.com/


Oh my goodness! What a surprise!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Halo 3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

I remember a homeschool discussion where the question came up, "What animal would you like to be?" and one of our animal loving kids responded without hesitation, "The Bonobo!" http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/4451/BonobosLikeHumans.html

I used to play soldier a lot as a kid, and our kid who wrote the essay on conscientious objection that may help save his life some day (I hope it doesn't come to that), used to play war games with his buddies in the back yard. In fact, I scripted an anti-war song early in the Iraq war, where he'd fire machine gun plastic pellets off my banjo head as I played, but we never staged it due to fear of eye injury.

Of course, maybe we're not typical cases.



I think the Bonobo is interesting as well, here. Bonobo societies are relatively peace-full exactly because they use sex in many places where other animals would resort to violence (and they use it as a currency, and as a form of greeting and.....). I find them fascinating in contrast to the morality of ratings boards. likely Bonobos would think we people were quite silly.

About war- and violent games, I don't think those are necessarily played for the violence because games always have other components as well. Factors like painting and collecting miniatures, getting together, improving your skills or a strategic challenge are probably a lot more important to most people most of the time.

Here is a great video about a "violent" game I have played a *lot* and it's analysed purely in terms of strategy and tactics. This is done by one of the world's best (if not the best) players by overlaying rectangles on the screen;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0cFs5mHQC4

The bit I want you guys to watch starts at about 1 minute. Notice that the more you play something like this the more the "rectangles" will become important while the violence decreases in emphasis. I know a few people that play other games (first person shooters) at a very high level (probably the top percentile worldwide for that game) and all of these are very calm people with rational, methodical approaches to issues and not at all inclined towards violence or even conflict on any level.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not a gamer. I loose interest too quickly. I have difficulty concentrating in chess and checkers too. I have mixed feelings about them, but in general, I'm not against them.

I don't know, but that kid who went berserk and killed 32 other kids at Virginia Tech might not have done that if he was able to work through his frustrations by playing a so-called violent video game.

In this respect, I'd like to see games where you can be a dishonest politician or a corporate manager, or even a concentration camp commandant. Then kids could see what these activities are like. Sure, sex games would be good, but how about serial rapists and murderers?

I mean, suppressing something usually produces a deviant form of what is suppressed. Look at all those celibate Catholic priests that turn into pedophiles. I wouldn't be surprised if giving a copy of Child Molester 4 to every new priest would reduce these guys need to do the real thing. Are not crucifixes an early form of video game? Violent media? Shocking entertainment?

Dmosc recently showed me the game Guitar Hero. I played a little myself. It's essentially playing air guitar, but the computer is keeping your score. Well, I was surprised that after playing along with some music that I originally thought was completely lame, I began to see how complex and well structured the guitar solos were. A play-along game like this teaches you to appreciate the music but understanding its detailed structure.
But it doesn't seem to inspire people to learn to play a real guitar.

I also agree it is absurd that on TV you can show a war, or even pictures of crucifixes (graphical representations of a person being tortured to death) but not even a 1/2 second shot of a woman's boob.

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