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Mutant Vactrol Filter
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
In the early 70s some people were talking about Moog filters having "balls" and the Buchla filters not. People were saying I'd buy the Buchla if it sounded like a Moog


I can't begin to imagine how annoying that would have been......
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, slight OT, but regarding Jan/v-un-v, and this talk of opto-isolating systems -- LEDs (the common variety!) can be used as light sensors, with a prenounced sensitivity to the frequency that the LED preduces?

It's true! If you use the LED as a sensor feeding a high-impedance (opamp) input, it can swing over a volt depending on the input bringhtness, and the LED type. Instead of drawing/scanning the circuit, I dug this up on the web:
http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm Look at the LED solar tracker.

Try it and put it under a flourescent bulb, or some halogen-arc bulb...and listen to the 50/60Hz hummmmmmm in all it's glory. Then put it infront of your TV Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:

It's true!


Didn't know that specifically but AFAIK all diodes (and transistors (and RAM !!)) are light sensitive and it works better for larger junction sizes. The light must of course be able to reach the junction. The junction size for an LED is pretty big, its case is pretty transparent, so it 'should' work pretty good even :-)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was once building a closed-loop circuit to control the intensity of a halogen lamp. I measured the light with a photodiode. There was considerable 60 Hz on the signal I was getting from the photodiode. I worked long and hard to find the ground loop. Alas, there was no ground loop, the 60 Hz was on imposed on the light itself. When I put a battery operated light on the photodiode I got a virtual constant noise-free signal. Some lamps, not just LEDs, are fast.

Not that you'd use a halogen lamp in a opto control circuit. Very Happy Still, this taught me a lesson.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

The lamp adds more lag of course, and eventually it will darken and then die.


One thing that is not commonly known is that reducing the nominal voltage to lamp by 10% is increasing its livetime by the factor 500 (if i remember wright...a huge increase anyway)...
Thats the reason that the lamps in certain consoles seem to life forever while on others you ve to replace them every few years.

The lamps in my compact phasing A are selected this way aswell..
they never brighten fully up... and its still the original lamps from 30 years ago.

The higher lag has a distinctiv fx for a phase mod circuit.
As higher the rate as lower the modulation depth...

I am not sure if this would be performed equaly smooth with an led as light source.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to wander OT again but I posted an easelesq G2 patch over here
Based on descriptions, the manual and some actual sound examples.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:


I am not sure if this would be performed equaly smooth with an led as light source.


Neither am I, but it seems plausible ... and its impossible of course to convince everyone here, I will not even try :-)

You are right of course about the reduced voltage on lamps making them last longer, I was joking a bit about 'm dying.

Good to read you again BTW.

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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
The higher lag has a distinctiv fx for a phase mod circuit.
As higher the rate as lower the modulation depth...

I am not sure if this would be performed equaly smooth with an led as light source.


I'm sure it's a factor. By the same token, the right LDR can make that lamp look like Speedy Gonzalez in a meth factory.

Here's a crappy recording of a 10 stage phaser I breadboarded a couple of years ago, using VTL5C2's, which are vastly slower than the 5C3's.

It starts out with a very wide slow sweep and, as the LFO freq is increased, you'll notice the sweep width drops pretty radically. The C2 did a good job of autolimiting the depth. I nicknamed this one the 'lazy phaser' because of that Very Happy


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Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a sweep speed-up using the VTL5C3/2 phase shifter. There's some reduction of sweep as the mod freq is sped up towards the end, but not nearly as much as the previous sample (still enough to limit extreme wackiness).

BTW, mono in stereo out - one channel is from the 12 stage, the other channel is from the 10th stage. Dry signal can be heard at the end. Triangle wave modulation.

Take care,
Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="Scott Stites"]
Quote:

Here's a crappy recording of a 10 stage phaser I breadboarded a couple of years ago, using VTL5C2's, which are vastly slower than the 5C3's.



It sounds more like a flanger- well almost - although not as liquid as the second.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes it does - the level of res I think contributed to this. The more stages a phase shifter has, the more 'flanger-like' it becomes. Naturally the distribution of peaks and notches won't be the same, but once you get a gaggle of them, the distinction becomes blurred.

The first example had 5 notches and 5 peaks (from the resonance), the second sample had 5/5 in one channel and 6/6 in the other. My goal is to make this thing capable of 24 stages. If I can make the Vactrols behave, it ought to be a pretty intense sound.

IIRC, the Tau Systems Pipe phaser had 20 stages. It was a transistor ladder design like the ARP Quadra phaser. For kicks sometime, if you haven't done so already, check out a sample of that bad boy here:

http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/soundsheet/soundsheet.html

Scroll down to "The PIPE PHASE Demo Record". While you're there (even more OT here) check out the Aphex Aural Exciter demo record - it had me in stitches.

Anyway, that is one intense phase sound on the Pipe. As much as I like it, I wouldn't want it that way all the time - that's why I want to put the tap switches into this thing and hope it doesn't become 'jack of all trades master of none' sort of thing.

Cheers,
Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:

IIRC, the Tau Systems Pipe phaser had 20 stages. It was a transistor ladder design like the ARP Quadra phaser. For kicks sometime, if you haven't done so already, check out a sample of that bad boy here:


Nice sounding phasors...
I am actually experimenting a bit with germanium transistors...
just modified an equalizer... and it sounds promissing...
very promissing.. even when the matching of the Ge transistors is not done wright.. i ve to learn more in that direction... But allready i can say that i would like to avoid op amps if possible and go for the noisy but dark sounding Ge Transistors instead... At least i want to give it a try...

I am looking for schemtics that show discret build phasors..
In ideal based on germanium transistors..
Have you come along some?
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:

IIRC, the Tau Systems Pipe phaser had 20 stages. It was a transistor ladder design like the ARP Quadra phaser. For kicks sometime, if you haven't done so already, check out a sample of that bad boy here:

http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/soundsheet/soundsheet.html

Scroll down to "The PIPE PHASE Demo Record". While you're there (even more OT here) check out the Aphex Aural Exciter demo record - it had me in stitches.



That's very nice!- great nerdy demo too- and some great funk with it Smile

The Tau phaser has that really good modulation- you know as it goes up it gets faster and then rips right up (through zero?)- just like with tape flanging. I think a lot of phasers are wasted because the designers don't consider the modulation section carefully enough- leaving it to just a basic triangle for the mod.

I found the schematics for the Tau (Aries) here;

http://www.musicsynthesizer.com/Diode%20Phaser/Diode%20Phaser.html

I've heard the Aural Exciter too- on UBUWEB. yes it's the ultimate nerd experience- go get it kids Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I am looking for schemtics that show discret build phasors..
In ideal based on germanium transistors..
Have you come along some?

Juergen Haible's work may give some clues.

There's his adaptation of the ARP Quadra Phase shifter. Transistor ladder (he used CA3086 packages). So, it uses si transistors, but it uses ge limiting diodes in the compander - he seems to think very highly of this sound.

http://home.debitel.net/user/jhaible/additional_schemos.html

His Neptune Phaser uses only transistors and LDR's in the signal path. All of the trannies are si, but may be worth a shot with ge?

http://home.debitel.net/user/jhaible/hj_neptune.html

Of the two, probably the Quadra would be the most interesting with ge because it's using the transistors themselves to alter the phase as opposed to LDR's in the Neptune.

Sounds like an interesting approach - I'm interested to see what you come up with!

Quote:
The Tau phaser has that really good modulation- you know as it goes up it gets faster and then rips right up (through zero?)- just like with tape flanging. I think a lot of phasers are wasted because the designers don't consider the modulation section carefully enough- leaving it to just a basic triangle for the mod.


Exactly! Phasers can do so much more than just sweep up and down. Especially when you start stacking on stages like on this one.

Quote:
I found the schematics for the Tau (Aries) here;


Yep! It's a good view of the peripheral circuitry. They only show the phase shift stages as a block. As I understand it, that was a potted part that came with the kit. Still, one could probably look at the Quadra schematic and come up with something that would fit in there.

Quote:
I've heard the Aural Exciter too- on UBUWEB. yes it's the ultimate nerd experience- go get it kids


Things like that seemed so prevalent in the seventies. Doesn't seem like many companies show that same goofy sense of humor regarding their products these days.

BTW, for those inclined to work with tubes - one of the sweetest phase shifters I ever heard was Rene Schmitz's tube phaser (six stages IIRC).

Cheers,
Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for the links...intersting stuff...

tube phasor? thats interesting too...somebody pointed me to battery powered miniatur tubes... a tube phasor build with them would be a cool projekt...

Have you seen the chematics for a tubephasor somewhere?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know of any tube phase shifter schematics that are available. This is the only tube phaser I'm aware of, and he just happened to have it going when I paid him a visit a couple of years ago (that was fun!).

You might ask Rene about it, here is his web addy:

http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/

Cheers,
Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Quote:
I've heard the Aural Exciter too- on UBUWEB. yes it's the ultimate nerd experience- go get it kids


Things like that seemed so prevalent in the seventies. Doesn't seem like many companies show that same goofy sense of humor regarding their products these days.



I dunno- some of those Future Music demos and things like Korg Electribe demos are pretty cheezie. I remember getting a demo for the Arp Omni in 1977 or so and another for the Xpander (Oberheim) a few years later (83 or so)- and thinking they were really cool at the time too- but looking back now .... Shocked

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I don't know of any tube phase shifter schematics that are available. This is the only tube phaser I'm aware of, and he just happened to have it going when I paid him a visit a couple of years ago (that was fun!).

You might ask Rene about it, here is his web addy:

tube phaser sounds great. just been to Renes site. These warnings about leathal voltages kind of tell me to stick with my transistors...
Is it possible to get a tube running at lower voltage? (I´ve heard of low voltage tubes, desdigned for car radios in the old days) How does it affect performance? Any circuits? I only find these warnings each time i search the web for tube diy.
(I know this isn´t the thread, but on page three you won´t mind i guess)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm clueless about tubes, and looking at the voltage warnings has never been a factor to tempt me to try them, either (though the resultant sound is a big draw). If Eric from Metasonix crawls through this thread, I'm certain he could enlighten us all.

Judging from the content and not the title, I'm not sure anything in this thread could be OT - it's kind of turned into one of those fun stream-of-conciousness threads that I'm sure may drive administrators nuts. It could probably stand to be re-named, but I'd be hard-pressed on what to call it........
Cheers,
Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Judging from the content and not the title, I'm not sure anything in this thread could be OT - it's kind of turned into one of those fun stream-of-conciousness threads that I'm sure may drive administrators nuts. It could probably stand to be re-named, but I'd be hard-pressed on what to call it...


When we first started the forum I was really uptight about topics getting OT, Off Topic. But the other moderators have really helped me to mellow out. One of the great things are discussions that roll around on related tangents. I like it that people are uninhibited. OT can just as easily mean On Topic.

I recently added this little discussion icon. Maybe it would be good to tag threads where topics become discussions, or where that is particularly desired. I have tagged this message with that icon as an example. Maybe the first topic of this thread should have that icon chosen. Scott, you are the author of the firsts message in the thread so you can go back and edit that message if you want. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

People, G2ian put this patch as a bit of fun in the G2 section;

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-67069.html#67069

Get the G2 demo from the Clavia website (If you haven't already)


Now tubes. Do you really mean vacuum tubes or do you mean 'tubing tubes of the tube' variety? Because my understanding was that you can create phasing using an actual physical tube- and not the vacuum variety. It's been long known that you can get a comb filter effect by placing a toilet roll (for eg) innertube against a small speaker, and moving a mic up and down the inner bit produces a variable 'notch' when recorded

perhaps this 'blackbox' maybe a simpler design than everyone is anticipating.

PS Thanks Scott for the CC link. This Charles Cohen stuff is shit-hot- I love it- in places it reminds me a bit of Vladimir Ussachevsky Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Howard,

I edited the first post to reflect the contents of the thread better (an hopefully help out the search engine). I wasn't sure if I changed the name of the thread if that would throw things off or not (thread notifications, etc), so I left it alone for now.

Also - been meaning to ask - has Charles Cohen been at any of the Electro Music events?

Quote:
PS Thanks Scott for the CC link. This Charles Cohen stuff is shit-hot- I love it- in places it reminds me a bit of Vladimir Ussachevsky


He is really something, isn't he?

Yep, the tube phaser mentioned was a vacuum tube phaser Rene had built. I visited him in Bonn right about this time two years ago. That guy is absolutely brilliant, and one of the nicest guys you'd ever hope to meet, to boot. Oh, dang, I know I have a link to a tube synth he built somewhere around here....now, where is that? Found the link, but it's gone Crying or Very sad

Cheerio,
Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks again for the links...

regarding low voltage vacuum tubes..

A friend of me is the valve microphon guru of berlin..he is developing valve mics for the big companys and is the founder of the most noisy free valve mic amp (-129 db)... He told me that theoretical a low voltage tube is just doing the same as a big one just with less voltage... But within the specs of the given tube...
So this low voltage tubes are not interesting for his highend amplifikation stuff..They are just not build to reach the highest specs in noisefloor and amplifikation...
But they might be good enough for filters on line level. He offered me some to do experiments with...

They are very small... 5 mm diameter about 35-40 mm long
more like a reed relay but with 5 conectors on one side...

They are ment for soldering...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

servus 3phase Would be great to if you let us know when something great happens in your experiments. Can those tubes run at eg 15volt or does low voltage with tubes mean just say 60V?
I´ve got an Hybrid/Tube preamp running on 18V AC. -got one of those 12ax whatever theyre called. Its normal size. So it seems to work somehow. I could imagine that lower voltage tresults in more distortion and dirt. Great.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zipzap wrote:
I´ve got an Hybrid/Tube preamp running on 18V AC. -got one of those 12ax whatever theyre called. Its normal size. So it seems to work somehow. I could imagine that lower voltage tresults in more distortion and dirt. Great.


Many of the budget hybrid tube products do run at say 12 V or 20 or whatever, but the voltage is internally stepped up for the tube. A preamp isn´t using much juice anyway.

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