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Animals win over salads 2 to 0
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bachus



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:40 am    Post subject: Animals win over salads 2 to 0 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[editor's note: This topic was split at Bachus's request from this one which he started on another subject: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-10555.html ]

Blue Hell wrote:
dmosc wrote:
It in some ways disturbs me that we can consider ourselves a "better" species than other mammals at all.


I share that feeling of disturbance with you here, I would not be surprised when Bachus would think so as well - but of course I can not speak for him.


Yes it seems clear to me that the emotional lives of some animals is nearly as rich, complex and beautiful as that of homo sapiens. But lacking a basis for normative parity it is difficult to see how one can apply "better" or "worse" except as purely emotional expressions.

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dmosc



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

humans express their feelings of superiority over other mammals by eating them even though there are abundant other food sources.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
humans express their feelings of superiority over other mammals by eating them even though there are abundant other food sources.


This applies to say cats too? They are expressing their superiority when they eat birds and mice?

As for the
dmosc wrote:
humans express their feelings of superiority over other mammals by eating them even though there are abundant other food sources.


Couldn´t this also be said re your favorite salad dish too? You areexpressing your superiority .. in this case the salad..



Idea Question Shocked

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bachus



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
humans express their feelings of superiority over other mammals by eating them even though there are abundant other food sources.


I it's true I love lording my superiority over a Ceaser salad. But perhaps, when it comes to meat, we are just expressing a not entirely unfounded assumption of categorical difference. Most animals*, as far as can be determined, do not project into the future and do not have a concept of death. The problem of normative parity with human beings is relevant here too.

*Elephants may well have an understanding of death. So treat them like they do.

And while I'm at it, don't eat factory farmed pork or beef -- I just isn't right.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
dmosc wrote:

wow, that's one of the most horrible things I've ever read in my life. Sounds more like nazi propaganda than something I though I'd read here. You should really learn more about DNA before you say stuff like this.


It was not phrased in a pleasant way, but the line of thinking to me seems to be more or less in line with Dawkin's book "the Selfish Gene" (see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene ). It is controversial indeed, but there is more scientific evidence coming up lately that chalenges the concept of a free will. We, humans, will have to find ways to deal with that. Dealing with it by totaly giving up on the concept of personal responsibility does not seem to be the way to go to me, and I hope it was not Bachus' intention to go that way either.


I am a materialist reductionist. I do not believe in "free will." But I believe that every individual must hold themselves, and be held, acountable for their actions, simply because there is no alternative and we are clearly the proximate causes of our actions. "Reductionist tough love" I guess you'd call it.

And yes, I highly recommend "The Selfish Gene"

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
humans express their feelings of superiority over other mammals by eating them even though there are abundant other food sources.



I just prefer the taste of my own phylum.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i will admit to being basically, a carnivore. that said, there is something unholy about this (someone told me about this and i had to look it up):
http://www.crawfish.cc/turduckens.htm

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bachus



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You mean the turduckhen?

We've had one.
They'er gooooood!
Drool, slobber, drool.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Couldn´t this also be said re your favorite salad dish too? You areexpressing your superiority .. in this case the salad..


"....I can out think you,
I can out-fight you,
And I'm gonna out-last you
White trash piece of sallad."


Yeah, works for me.

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dmosc



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

heh, well yes. As funny as it sounds I think you DO show your superiority over lettuce, etc when you eat a cesar salad. Clearly if you were starving that you would eat what you had to but we're pretty much creatures of preference wouldn't you say? At least when it comes to food.

I challenge that all mammals, even mice, have a fairly sophisticated understanding of life and death. I once saw a list of things humans could do that no other known life form could. Although I have not been able to find it recently, I pretty much feel that the number of items on that list should be zero. In fact, lately I've been wondering of certain species of dolphins are even smarter than we are.

We're so close genetically...
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I once saw a list of things humans could do that no other known life form could. Although I have not been able to find it recently, I pretty much feel that the number of items on that list should be zero.


...loosing a list would, i expect, be at least one thing on that list Smile

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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
I challenge that all mammals, even mice, have a fairly sophisticated understanding of life and death. .


I have seen no convincing evidence that animals in general have an "understanding" of death though I do not dismiss the possibility. I am keenly interested in animal intelligence, behavior and training and in that context have worked with dogs, horses, goats and cattle doing my best to approach them without any limiting bias or preconception. My avatar is a bull which when young I trained to run an agility course. I have even potty-trained one of our horses . All of which is to say I have spent more time interacting with and observing animals than I have with people. These experiences and observations convince me that animals have rich and complex emotional lives deserving of profound respect. But I have only once seen an animal exhibit any behavior that indicated a grasp of death and that was ambiguous at best (unlike the behavior of elephants). So I am interested and open to the idea, but substantial evidence would be required.

Edit:
Added link

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now that this has gone so wonderfully OT I'm ready to chip in... rendeer

dmosc wrote:
We're so close genetically...

I hear that being said a lot. But it does not follow that we are close physically or mentally. Right?

Bachus: your horse picture is a 404.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:


Bachus: your horse picture is a 404.

DJ
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Not any more! Eh? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:

I hear that being said a lot. But it does not follow that we are close physically or mentally. Right?


As I understand it there is a direct (if complex) relation between the similarity of genomes and the similarities of the entities that constitute those genomes.
Yes/no?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
As I understand it there is a direct (if complex) relation between the similarity of genomes and the similarities of the entities that constitute those genomes.
Yes/no?

I wont make any pretence to know. But I don't think I look or think(?) much like dolphins, earthworms and flowers... Chimpanzees maybe, to some extent.

That is a nice horse, Bachus! I see it generously allows people to stay indoors with it Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:
bachus wrote:
As I understand it there is a direct (if complex) relation between the similarity of genomes and the similarities of the entities that constitute those genomes.
Yes/no?

I wont make any pretence to know. But I don't think I look or think(?) much like dolphins, earthworms and flowers... Chimpanzees maybe, to some extent.

That is a nice horse, Bachus! I see it generously allows people to stay indoors with it Very Happy

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This changes the thread again Very Happy but, you said "look or think", What you did not include was "feel", i.e. emotions in common a la Charels Darwin's "Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals". Can I ask why that was?

Oh! And thanks for the good words! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
In fact, lately I've been wondering of certain species of dolphins are even smarter than we are.


I think that certain species of mollusc are smarter than we are. Smart and delicious.

I had a theory once that because most plant species can exist without consuming other species, they have a sort of moral edge over us and deserve a lot more respect than they get from your average vegetarian.
I considered eating nothing but meat to make a point but it just didn't taste right.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So, erm, do you guys read a lot of new age books?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
So, erm, do you guys read a lot of new age books?

I can only speak for my self but I'm more into old age stuff. Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
This changes the thread again Very Happy but, you said "look or think", What you did not include was "feel", i.e. emotions in common a la Charels Darwin's "Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals". Can I ask why that was?

Hm, because emotion is a mode of thinking? No really, I haven't got a clue... I'm on so thin ice here anyway that I think I'll trot back ashore and watch the fun from there.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
DrJustice wrote:

I hear that being said a lot. But it does not follow that we are close physically or mentally. Right?


As I understand it there is a direct (if complex) relation between the similarity of genomes and the similarities of the entities that constitute those genomes.
Yes/no?


I hope this is not as oxymoronic as it sounds. I was thinking in terms of an analogy to mathematics with “direct” corresponding to a one to one mapping and “complex” corresponding to the defined relation between domain and range.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

I hope this is not as oxymoronic as it sounds. I was thinking in terms of an analogy to mathematics with “direct” corresponding to a one to one mapping and “complex” corresponding to the defined relation between domain and range.


Methinks it is more axiomatic (at least I didn't notice anything oxymoronic).
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:
bachus wrote:
This changes the thread again Very Happy but, you said "look or think", What you did not include was "feel", ...


Hm, because emotion is a mode of thinking? No really, I haven't got a clue... I'm on so thin ice here anyway that I think I'll trot back ashore and watch the fun from there.

DJ
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I hope I didn't offend you. I simply haven't thought of feeling as being equivalent to thinking. So that does answer my question. I regret that you’ve “gone ashore” as we need as many intelligent voices here as we can get (to help compensate for my presence). Ashore or not I am going to address an assertion you made because I think it is important.

DrJustice wrote:
... But I don't think I look or think (?) much like dolphins, earthworms and flowers... Chimpanzees maybe, to some extent.


If feeling is equivalent to thinking or thinking subsumes feeling then my reading of Darwin’s work argues strongly that in many important ways you do in fact think like the “lower” animals.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I hope I didn't offend you.

Not at all! This is just good fun Smile At least until a geneticist comes by and changes that...

Quote:
If feeling is equivalent to thinking or thinking subsumes feeling then my reading of Darwin’s work argues strongly that in many important ways you do in fact think like the “lower” animals.

That may well be, but how much alike is 'like'?. My only assertion was that I haven't a clue. The 'look and think like' statement was a mere unfounded speculation Wink

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