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1/4" or Banana
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MattofMattRabbit



Joined: Apr 23, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: 1/4" or Banana
Subject description: choice of plugs for patch cords
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Hey everybody,

I'm new to the synth scene and I'm eager to jump in. I searched the internet for a while looking for a good synth project and found Ray Wilson's Soundlab which I have noticed is popular around here.

I want something small but I want to get more of a modular feel so I am planning on patching out a Soundlab. I am torn between using 1/4" jacks or banana plugs. I was wondering what other people thought.
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dnny



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 1/4" or Banana
Subject description: choice of plugs for patch cords
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MattoMattRabbit welcome to electro-music.com forum.

take a look on these topics there is discussion about bananas vs. jacks.

Anybody PAtched It OUt?
Got the parts, ready to start construction.
Multiple Ins and Outs

HTH

daniel

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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i have never given my opinion on this topic, a debate which has been going on since like 1965 or something [with synthesis equipment anyway]

-by they way, do a google for "1/4" vs. bananas" or variations of this, find alot of discussions about the different interconnects synthesists and manufacturers prefer and why.-

..also, don't forget about 1/8"ers and tip jacks, these guys' little brothers.

anyways, here is my opinion.. 1/4" jacks and plugs are too big. -i have seen some fine lookin construction planning of panelspace completely undermined by these monsters. you get a small patch going on and it's like whaaa??-

bananas are groovy and stackable! look good. people seem to think that they are a 'real pain' to connect to other equipment. it's not that big a deal.

tips are a good size, but, do they make stackable plugs? i wish! i guess just make mults.

1/8"ers are a good size too. no complaint about those really.

for something as simple as a soundlab, i would prolly just build it with hard-wired switched routings, perhaps with a modulations section akin to the Pro-One's.. but thats just me..

i have these little springs that will accept wires and hold them, they originally came from one of those '300 in 1 electronics' kits.. they are cool i have holding onto them for a while. maybe they would be good for a simple thing like the soundlab. hrrm.

josh
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One real plus point with 4mm bananas is that it is so very quick & easy to make new cables - the plugs I've got just have a screw to fix the wire, so no soldering required - if you've gotta make up a bunch of cables (and you can never have too many when you've got a modular system..) then 1/4" or 1/8" would take you many many times longer to make than banana.

The only thing I wish for from banana plugs is Normalisation - where you can have a connection that is defeated when you plug a cable in. That'd be useful in some circumstances..

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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's possible with some circuitry, depending on what you wish to allow/disallow..
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

there is no shielding with Bananas. I don´t know if that is a problem?
When you put in Audio from the Outside world it might be good to have shielding/ground connection.
Personally i don´t think 1/4s are too big, but i like big cnobs and stuff as well. being able to tsack the babanas is a very big benefit.
What do you think about using both?
Bananas for outputs, 1/4s for inputs?
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh yeah - I do have 1/4" for input / output to other equipment --> for inputs I have a bank of 3 preamps ('cos you certainly need to preamp a guitar input for example) and I have a couple of output mixers that have banana and 1/4" output.

As far as I can see the shielding (or lack of) isn't too much of a problem - I'd have thought largely 'cos modulars are usually working with really high signal levels (eg. 10v PtoP rather than 100mv PtoP)- is that sense or am I barking?

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Makes sense!
But do you , besides from the Preamps which is a good idea, use Banans and 1/4s parallel over your system, or manly bananas, or both?
I´ve been using 1/4s so far, but it´s still time to change. Stacking the plugs is so nice!
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MattofMattRabbit



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

one of the reasons that i was looking at 1/4" was just because they are so easy to get a hold of. i haven't found anywhere that i can really get a whole bunch of banana plugs for any reasonable price.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Get an old Buchla 100 Series system and a vintage Moog Modular - or any old gear that has had a chance to get some wear and tear - and corrosion. You'll find the Buchla's banana connections still work perfectly where the 1/8" Buchla phone and the 1/8" Moog phone connections are very noisy.

I think banana is the way to go for a synth interconnect. The connections are much more reliable - especially when the gear has a few years under it's knobs. You don't need shielding for short distances, so banana is fine.

IMHO, the 1/8" mini plugs are the worst.

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Last edited by mosc on Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:10 am; edited 3 times in total
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ZipZap - Yeah I use mainly (hehe - you wrote manly!) bananas throughout my system - 1/4"s only on the in / out - pics at www.bugbrand.co.uk/pages/modular.htm

Matt - I'm surprised you can't find 4mm banana plugs/sockets - any reasonably sized electronics store should be able to sort them - I dunno US suppliers, but in the UK Rapid are super and very cheap.

And Howard's words make me happy that I chose to go the banana way.!.

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is it possible that those stackable plugs are rather expensive? I just found them for 2,60 Euro. Banana Plugs with a hole at the side are 32 cents. I guess they´d work as well, but it´s not as nice. 1/4" stuff is still the cheapest. Unfortunately i have to consider this
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm very much aware of trying to get things as cheap as possible!
(and when you factor in the value of your time spent soldering the 1/4" or 1/8" cables too....)

From Rapid in the UK (not sure if they ship outside UK though):

4mm Sockets @ £0.16+VAT

4mm Stackable Plugs @ £0.30+VAT

Both of these can be had cheaper in larger quantities too.!.

And the cable is cheap too:
25m of cable for £2.10+VAT

Oh yeah, made me realise another Banana Benefit --> MUTLICOLOURS!

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dnny



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm happy to use bananas, and some times just a bolt in panel and alligator clip does the job - but the connection is no that reliable. and maybe that's more in circuit bending than synths.

does anybody know why bananas are called bananas ?

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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

is it a joke?

Quote:
does anyone know why bananas are called bananas?
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, this really gets me thinking now. Most of my modules are not build into anything right now, so it´s still time to change.
What i don´t like about 1/4" is that they have quite some resistance when plugging something in or out. Mekes me want to hold the pannel not to rip the synth apart (i´m using quite thin aluminium, strengthen it with some wooden plates).
Is that better with Bananas? Do they plug mor easily?
What i do like about 1/4"s, as mentioned above, is that you can have normalized jacks. Topp posted it is possible electronically, i wonder how.
Say i´ve got an adsr getting its gate from the bus unless a plug in the panel breakes the connection. how do you do that with bananas?
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey, yeah they do plug/unplug nice and easily! ok, for your question about the adsr, i have to goto sleep now, [it's 5 am where im at!] but, i will try to figure it out. post that part of your scheme for gating, what voltage, etc.

josh
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zipzap wrote:

Say i´ve got an adsr getting its gate from the bus unless a plug in the panel breakes the connection. how do you do that with bananas?

True, a disadvantage of bananas is there is no normalizing function. If you want to do normalizing, you can use a toggle switch, or a fancy electronic circut that detects is there is something plugged in on a jack and swiches off the normalized signal. To me a switch is probably easier and more reliable.

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks! It´s just plain gate, 1 or 0, about 6 to12v i´m not sure or ground, coming fromthe bus going to the envelopes. Each envelope has a jack for external gate that can break the connection.
I was thinking maybe it´s possible to have a diy jack. Small tube that can hold a plug, a swich without snap-in at the end of the tube that "feels" the plug. should be possible. A swich at the panel is of course the easiest way.
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Pehr



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bananas are smaller sure, but for audio signals I like 1/4" jacks since most instruments use them. And because I don't want to mix bananas and 1/4" jacks and make my own cables with bananas in one end and 1/4" connector in the other (for... I dunno... cross modulation perhaps? Confused) I choose 1/4" jacks ... Cool That way I can use those nice looking, colourful patch cables jocolor

If I someday would swtich from 1/4" jacks to bananas there's always banana jack interfaces Cool

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Pehr wrote:
If I someday would swtich from 1/4" jacks to bananas there's always banana jack interfaces Cool


And then there is the BJI Tribute Page

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MattofMattRabbit



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What about rca jacks? They seem like they are pretty secure, the only downside I can see is that they aren't quite as fast plugging in.
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
And then there is the BJI Tribute Page

perfect

Banana Jack Interface user, President Bush
explains operation of the new Q150 Filter
to Vice President Cheney.

perfect
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Pehr



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
And then there is the BJI Tribute Page


Shocked

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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RCA jacks are not very reliable, especially if you do a lot of insertions. They are ususally used in places where cords are not intended to be frequently adjusted. The jack itself can wear out when it loses it's springiness. Same with a phone jack. In the banana system, the plug has the springiness - the jack is a metal hole - very little to wear out. So, which banana cables may wear out, but the jacks can last much longer.

For what it is worth, today I visited an independent Mercedes Benz service garage. The interface they use between the car and the computer test equipment uses banana jacks. Next time I'm there, I'll try to snap a photo. This gizzmo they use would make a great DIY synth case. The Mercedes Benz would too, for that matter. Laughing

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