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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
S/H => bitcrusher-style
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nisios



Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Lisboa - Portugal

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi...
I breadboarded this using 9v.
i was thinking of making a pedal but with only 9v i get lots of bleed throu.
Is there any way of making this sound good with 9v?
I used voltage division to power the 2 ics.
The cmos is using 4.5v.
the ad781 is getting + 4.5 and - 4.5.
maybe the relation between the 2 voltages is messing this....no?
you used 24v p to p and 5v to cmos. So ... a pretty diferent relation......but with only 9 to mess arround theres no much room to drop the cmos voltage.
Any way this thing is great.....only the annoying oscillation..

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bugbrand



Joined: Nov 27, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool that you've tried like this -- though I think 9v will almost certainly be insufficient and especially with the powering of the 40106 for clocking. Someone else has just been emailing me about trying it out with two 9v batteries (so as to create a simple bipolar supply) -- I think this has a greater chance of working out - I'll let you know when I hear some news from him..
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You could also try one of those little charge pump chips.

http://www.geofex.com/circuits/+9_to_-9.htm

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nisios



Joined: Sep 02, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks.
I think i will try the charge pump......just have to see if i can find one of those ic's in my local shop.

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modularkomplex



Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Posts: 11
Location: germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I did a simple LF398-version of the circuit. Works fine.

cheers,
Mike


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Last edited by modularkomplex on Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:42 am; edited 2 times in total
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice work! Well done & thanks for posting!

I'd been wondering on doing one with the LF398 - its edge triggered, right? So no need to make the trigger signal into a really narrow pulse..

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modularkomplex



Joined: Feb 14, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, no need of a narrow pulse here. And the other difference is the need of a hold-cap - the 100nF between the ICs. This should be much smaller than the stated 100nF, I think 0.1-10nF would perform better. I still have to do some experiments here.

Mike


PS: I've tested various values for the hold-cap. Best audible results are with 4,7nF. 1nF and lower will result in a whistling background-sound (but that could be from the used NPO - had no foil-caps left at these values). I've updated the above posted pictures.

Last edited by modularkomplex on Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Mike this is great!! Thanks very much for posting these and,

welcome to electro-music.com too of course! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Photon



Joined: Mar 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just stumbled across this:
The Malgorithm, a voltage-controlled bit depth and sample-rate reducer module.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMxmxuA4LZg

website here:
http://www.theharvestman.org/

he's got two other modules finished as well, the "zorlon cannon"- pitched noise and gates, and the "hertz donut", a digital oscillator

really cool sounding stuff and worth a look Very Happy Very Happy
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bugbrand



Joined: Nov 27, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I 2nd the Worth-a-look view -- the Harvetman stuff looks really great & exciting. Mighty interesting & forward thinking.
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bigtex



Joined: Mar 30, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I woke up this morning with an idea in my head. I've finally solved a problem that has been bugging me ever since this thread started.

For a long time I've been wanting to make an effect with continuously variable amplitude quantization, but I hadn't come up with a good way of doing it that didn't involve analog to digital to analog conversion. A sample and hold works great for time quantization (sampling) but doesn't do anything to reproduce the effects of bit depth (aka "bitcrusher").

The problem with fixed bit depths is that you get fixed steps of amplitude quantization. 4-bit audio has 16 amplitude steps, and changing to 3-bit or 5-bit will jump to a different number of steps and a different sound. Wouldn't it be nice to smoothly scale the staircase to dial in just the right sound or slowly modulate the quantization?

The solution: comparators and two sample and hold stages!

This operates very much like a ramp-compare ADC but without the need for precision timing. The basic principle is that a sawtooth wave at a very high frequency is used as the reference input to a comparator, so every time the input audio and the sawtooth cross each other, the comparator changes state. This state change is used to drive the S&H chip's clock input (and National's LF398 is edge triggered, as pointed out before).

OK, so now we have audio being sampled every time it crosses paths with a high frequency sawtooth wave. Great. But that's no better than a regular S&H other than the slight skew between successive samples due to the sawtooth-wave based triggering. How does this get me adjustable amplitude quantization?

Add another stage before this where the sawtooth wave is, itself, quantized by an even higher frequency square wave. So if the sawtooth being used to quantize the audio was 10kHz (slightly audible ringing would be produced) then that sawtooth should be quantized by a, let's say, 100kHz square wave using another S&H chip. Now the 10kHz sawtooth is divided into a ladder. Turn the 100kHz wave up or down in frequency and you get a different number of steps.

Now that we have a staircase wave, let's go back to the audio being quantized. As I said before, every time the audio and sawtooth wave cross each other, a sample is taken. Now that we have a staircase wave instead of a sawtooth, each of those samples will be taken at specific amplitudes defined by the shape of the staircase wave.

Adjusting the square wave will change how many steps the sawtooth wave is divided into. Adjusting the sawtooth wave's frequency will change how frequently the input audio is divided into steps.

Smooth, infinitely adjustable quantization with variable amplitude steps and sampling rate. Just what I've always wanted.

SUMMARY:
Use existing S&H circuit to quantize a sawtooth wave.
Feed that into one input of a comparator.
Feed desired input audio into a buffer.
Feed first buffer output into second S&H chip.
Feed second buffer output into other input of comparator.
Use comparator output as clock of second S&H chip.
Enjoy the output greatly.

Any questions? (working on schematic and diagrams, here)

Edit: perhaps, depending on the speed of the ICs in use, it would be better for the 2nd S&H to sample the staircase wave instead of the audio input, just to be sure that the amplitude is correct and not dependent on the S&H grabbing the input audio at the right time...
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Tex
(..I'm surprised no one else has commented on this exciting development!?)

Sounds ACE!
I don't fully understand your methods quite yet, but think I have an inkling what you're on about.

Let us know how yr investigations go!

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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been following this "exciting developement", and I'd love to comment on it, but unfortunately I have no idea what you're talking about! Laughing
Seriously though, I'm sure I'd get it if I just had the time to sit down and soak it up, (maybe the schematic will help), but with a head full of Klee and a lab full of bits, I just can't see the forrest for the trees at the moment. Confused Sad

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trent saburo



Joined: May 27, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

big tex is my hero
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goodrevdoc



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow BigTex, that's pretty cool. Not sure I can say if I can see the trees or the forest, but I think I have a very rude crude idea of what's going on. Bug's circuit already has a spot planned in my modular, and I've some 398's on the way. Got to say I really like these off the beaten path modules, makes my noodling time more interesting, IMHO.
-justin
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bigtex



Joined: Mar 30, 2006
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Location: Cupertino, California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

After drawing some waveforms and thinking about it I've tweaked the design a bit. Now I use three sample & hold ICs.

I just spent the last three hours drawing out lovely diagrams of how this works complete with really detailed waveforms and explanation and then stupid Adobe Illustrator crashes during the save and wipes out the file. Great.

OK, instead I've attached a really awful photo of a poorly drawn block diagram. I guess I'll just try a little better to explain this time. Oh, who am I kidding this still won't make sense.

There are four input signals:
- sawtooth wave
- square wave (same frequency as sawtooth)
- clock (also a square wave, much higher frequency)
- audio input that you wish to quanitze

It all starts with a sawtooth wave. This is quantized by the first S&H chip and turned from a ramp shape into a staircase shape at a rate determined by the clock.

That same original sawtooth wave is also fed into a comparator. It is compared to the audio input. Every time the comparator's state changes (caused by the sawtooth wave or audio input becoming higher or lower than the other) the second S&H samples the current step of the staircase wave.

The third S&H is to make sure that there is only one sampled step per each cycle of the sawtooth wave. Depending on the S&H being used, this might need to go through some kind of divide-by-2 so that there will be one square edge to trigger the S&H per sawtooth cycle.

Too bad my waveform diagrams are gone because they really made all of this make sense. Grr I'm going to bed.


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iorobyy



Joined: Sep 26, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi!
where i could buy some AD781? (better a european source)
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

has anyone gotten this to work with the 398? i tried a long while back and it didnt work...i just wanted to know if lots of people have gone the 398 route and if there might be a press n peel layout??

if not, anyone know the best US place to by the AD chip??

thanks

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synthmonger



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How bad does the oscillator bleed through for you guys? Theres alot of crackly noise that fades in and out on certain settings, it's kind of annoying ;x

I'm using a maxim charge pump and powering the board with +/- 9volts so I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it. I can't test it out on a bipolar 12 volt till I get home from work ;X Do you think this is the problemo?
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synthmonger



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nm fixed it dang wire poped out of the board. I need to get my eyes checked Cool
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noisedeputy



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bigtex wrote:
After drawing some waveforms and thinking about it I've tweaked the design a bit. Now I use three sample & hold ICs.

etc....
.



what ever happened this development?
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bigtex



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noisedeputy wrote:
bigtex wrote:
After drawing some waveforms and thinking about it I've tweaked the design a bit. Now I use three sample & hold ICs.

etc....
.



what ever happened this development?


Like just about everything in my life not related to my current job: nothing.

Sad but true. Since writing that my employment has taken over almost all of my time. I haven't even finished assembling all of the Blacet kits I bought over two years ago, let alone breadboard anything form my languishing idea notebook.

*sigh*
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noisedeputy



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

that's no fun to hear, let us know if you ever eventually get to work on this idea again then I suppose. Smile
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softfin



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok. I just have to break the silence in this topic Exclamation
I had a fully stuffed 398-version of the Bug Crusher laying on the table for at least a year, but today I finally wired it up and ... cheeeezeeey Works great. It sounds nice and dirty as expected.
There's a constant ringing sound going on which is audible with a low level signal and when there is nothing connected to the input. I suppose it is normal in this circuit(?)

Anyway, I find this a very useful module for various things. Thanks a lot to Tom for the design (and modularkomplex for the stripboard layout)!
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great stuff!

You should be able to decrease any background clocking noise by narrowing the trigger pulses (though I don't know particularly with the 398 'cos it maybe does things internally unlike the AD781).

Hey - and remember that you may also be able to set things just slightly differently and use it as a standard Sample & Hold module (ie running at low freqs).

Edit - also note that you should be careful with the wiring -- bad wiring can mean crosstalk which could be where your bad-tone-bleeds are coming from.

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